eBike Electric MTB---Wow!

[Tricia]

Spoken like someone who thinks 'Multi Use' trails appear out of thin air.

Here is how it works: mountain bikers build covert trail to ride with friends > friends show other friends > other friends tell everyone about 'cool trail' > cool trail is now drawing too many riders to be covert and the process to make it 'legal' begins. Lots of meetings, lots of promises > New 'legal' trail is now 'multi-use' > hikers and dog walkers begin to enjoy the trail... but maybe it would be better with hand rails and stair steps? > mountain bikers try to accommodate walkers during trail work days by adding things they've asked for (dog wakers are a no show at the trailwork day...) > 'important' dog walker scared by mountain biker > bikes no longer allowed on multi-use trail > told "they should build their own" purpose built mtb trails "somewhere else".

How 'You' enjoy 'the outdoors' is ABSO- F**king-LUTELY my concern when it might lead to 1000's of hours of my blood sweat and tears being taken from me. I am all for ebikes. I am not against eMTB, but if it puts my access to 'my' trails in jeopardy? Sorry, but f off.

And this is where I have a little experience, but in the enduro trails around No Michigan.
Pick any kind of trail where a volunteer group does a lion's share of the work to make it happen and there are battles between quads and dirt bikes, horses and bicycles, runners and inline skaters.
I see the point that the E Assist bikes may make a negative impact, but I also see that its not about the tool, its about the user. Its not the E Bike that has potential to wreck your fun, but the ass who buys one and thinks it opens up areas that he couldn't ride before.

Rule #1 should always be, Don't be an ass

 

[SShore]

Spoken like someone who thinks 'Multi Use' trails appear out of thin air.

Here is how it works: mountain bikers build covert trail to ride with friends > friends show other friends > other friends tell everyone about 'cool trail' > cool trail is now drawing too many riders to be covert and the process to make it 'legal' begins. Lots of meetings, lots of promises > New 'legal' trail is now 'multi-use' > hikers and dog walkers begin to enjoy the trail... but maybe it would be better with hand rails and stair steps? > mountain bikers try to accommodate walkers during trail work days by adding things they've asked for (dog wakers are a no show at the trailwork day...) > 'important' dog walker scared by mountain biker > bikes no longer allowed on multi-use trail > told "they should build their own" purpose built mtb trails "somewhere else".

How 'You' enjoy 'the outdoors' is ABSO- F**king-LUTELY my concern when it might lead to 1000's of hours of my blood sweat and tears being taken from me. I am all for ebikes. I am not against eMTB, but if it puts my access to 'my' trails in jeopardy? Sorry, but f off.

I am going to assume you are talking about public lands here. I am no legal expert, but by your definition, some mountain bikers build "covert" trails in the National Forest, an action I assume is illegal to begin with, then word spreads and more and more mountain bikers work on this illegal trail then after the fact, try to go through the process they should have gone through before beginning their illegal activities. And somehow, your 1000s of hours of illegal activities make these illegal trails on public land "yours"???

 

[Seldomski]

It's the Uber approach...

 

[fatbob]

Go to Austria in summer - eMTBs and eBikes are everywhere but it is either the older "non biker" demographic getting out of the car and enjoying themselves or experienced bikers extending their range. Not seen a lot of the yobbo behaviour everyone is so fearful of. There is a guy on snowHeads who post degenerative kneed reconstuctions and a hip replacement has literally got a new lease of life from being able to get out and participate in group rides etc.

I've seen all the ego stuff on these type of threads before about being "electricked" and how its a affront to people who have dedicated their lives to being Leadville 100 contenders etc. Guess what - people are doing it for the same reason you do MTB to get a modest buzz from participating in a controlled manner in an enjoyable activity - they aren't out to harsh your vibe. I don't believe that people are really buying them because they are a way round the no dirt bike rules etc.

 

[newfydog]

Spoken like someone who thinks 'Multi Use' trails appear out of thin air.

Here is how it works: mountain bikers build covert trail to ride with friends > friends show other friends > other friends tell everyone about 'cool trail' > cool trail is now drawing too many riders to be covert and the process to make it 'legal' begins. .

Here in "the best mountain bike town in America" (by too many magazines) the trails indeed evolved as you describe. You left out a key step. Many of our now famous trails were marked out and cleared covertly by mountainbikers, who then fired up their motocross bikes and roared up and down them to lay in the initial track. Even after that it took a lot of riding to get them so they rolled well. Ebikes would not move the dirt but they are quiet and not so bad to ride on a new soft surface.

As far a closures coming, I don't see that here. The value of our bike trails has been determined to be worth more than all the timber on in the forest, and the forest service now treats trails as a valuable asset. Some have been made one-way. The downhill-shuttle riders are a far bigger threat to multi-use than ebike riders

 

[newfydog]

Go to Austria in summer - eMTBs and eBikes are everywhere but it is either the older "non biker" demographic getting out of the car and enjoying themselves or experienced bikers extending their range. Not seen a lot of the yobbo behaviour everyone is so fearful of. There is a guy on snowHeads who post degenerative kneed reconstuctions and a hip replacement has literally got a new lease of life from being able to get out and participate in group rides etc.

I've seen all the ego stuff on these type of threads before about being "electricked" and how its a affront to people who have dedicated their lives to being Leadville 100 contenders etc. Guess what - people are doing it for the same reason you do MTB to get a modest buzz from participating in a controlled manner in an enjoyable activity - they aren't out to harsh your vibe. I don't believe that people are really buying them because they are a way round the no dirt bike rules etc.

Well said. I think there are remarkable number of strawmen in this thread. I have seen references to "hero ebikers" demanding trail right of way on a climb, crazy fast ebikers out of control and running into hikers. Out of curiosity, has anyone actually encountered these riders, or are they just speculation as to what might happen.

 

[trailtrimmer]

If you know it isn't a green activity and are preaching that everyone else should not participate in "non green" activities you don't approve of, then yes, you are a hypocrite. What difference does it make if you "OFFSET" your non green activities by riding your bike to work, you still contributed to problem you are so deeply concerned about.

So you are suggesting that I should have zero concern taking a relatively low impact activity and turning it into a high one simply because I don't live a strict green lifestyle? That by just doing one high impact activity that I can't choose to do a little more to reduce my impact in other places? If you read a little earlier, you would see that I actually like ebikes in some cases as they extend how far one can easily commute.

I'm not suggesting that we ban ORVs, motorcycles, snowmobiles, etc. They started out motorized, have separate trails and have policy treating them as such. Taking a non-motorized hobby or sport and making it motorized changes the use of a non-motorized, multi-use trail and significantly alters it's impact on not just the trail, but the carbon footprint.

 

[newfydog]

I
And call me a hypocrite all you want, but I know that skiing isn't a green activity, but I can help offset my impact by bike commuting part time and making decisions that reduce my consumption. I can afford to drive my truck every day, but I only use it for towing or when I need the capacity so I keep driving a 14 year old econobox. People who enjoy winter should be concerned about the potential for millions of more devices plugged into the power grid if they don't somehow offset what we already use. Turning a non-motorized activity into a motorized one is just another nail in the coffin of stable winters.

taking a relatively low impact activity and turning it into a high one .

Well, I did some calculations. One mile in my car uses the same energy as 1,200 miles on my ebike. Not exactly a high impact activity.

The main trailhead for our bike trails is 3.6 miles from town. The vast majority drive out there, (the forest service just put in big new parking lot) despite the fact that there is a good bike path. I usually bike out there, but would always bike it on the ebike. Ebikes have tremendous potential to make the world greener.

 

[trailtrimmer]

And somehow, your 1000s of hours of illegal activities make these illegal trails on public land "yours"???

He never said that he himself spent those hours building illegal trail, you assumed that. The process of starting new trails or taking parts of existing bandit systems and making them legit on public land is painstaking work and normally unpaid. When you have public input sessions that involve walkers, runners, bird watchers, skiers, equestrians, hikers, hunters, etc. it takes a lot of time to reach agreements. ebikes in some cases change what was promised or expected by other user groups. His point is entirely valid.

 

[fatbob]

ebikes in some cases change what was promised or expected by other user groups. His point is entirely valid.

How? Other than in the definition of "motorized" sense? Say you have a top level MTBer and a eBiker - surely the issue is speed, courtesy to other trail users, appropriate use of the trail to control erosion (e.g. no riding in wet conditions, no wheel locking) . Nothing to do with whether the eBiker is getting a bit of assistance. Surely you can control usage based on outputs rather than input characteristics - otherwise why not ban suspension on bikes because it facilitates more aggressive riding, neon painted bikes because owners are more attention seeking etc?

 

[newfydog]

Here is one more very real "what if".

We have a trail called the Whoops. A long DH section with one jump after another. One way downhill. Officially, closed to ebikes.
There is a double track open to motor vehicles paralleling it. Many riders rider laps, crawling up, and flying down. Many others drive shuttles. Bike shops have shuttle tours which frequently work in the whoops as a selling point.

Should e-bikes be allowed on the descent? if they turn off the motor? (no one pedals much on the dh anyway) Would they still be ebikes if the battery was removed and carried in a camelback? Would it piss you off to be passed by an ebike on the climb? If so, why?

 

[Philpug]

He never said that he himself spent those hours building illegal trail, you assumed that.

There is a LOT of assuming going on in this thread. I am just gald that it has remained (mostly) very civil.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Probably the best way to gain acceptance would be to petition for certain lands or trails to open for ebikes. Once it's proven that ebikes don't cause problems, they'll have become more common and will gain acceptance in one form or another. Might not be fair, it's just the way things go.

 

[newfydog]

There is a LOT of assuming going on in this thread. I am just gald that it has remained (mostly) very civil.

It was a good assumption. Most of us have spent a lot of time and energy on trail building and maintenance. Not all of us are so proud of it to make it our screen name, but we all work on them.

 

[Monique]

I am going to assume you are talking about public lands here. I am no legal expert, but by your definition, some mountain bikers build "covert" trails in the National Forest, an action I assume is illegal to begin with

From what I just googled, it's not illegal, but it does require permission.

I'm not suggesting that we ban ORVs, motorcycles, snowmobiles, etc. They started out motorized, have separate trails and have policy treating them as such. Taking a non-motorized hobby or sport and making it motorized changes the use of a non-motorized, multi-use trail and significantly alters it's impact on not just the trail, but the carbon footprint.

Didn't someone just say it's a tiny footprint? I often drive half an hour or more to a trailhead - if I wanted an e-bike, it would be negligible impact compared to what I'm already doing. And I wonder if it even compares to my gas powered mower.

My opinions are partly informed by the treatment of mountain biking in the Colorado front range. It's like we're heroin addicts lying passed out on the sidewalk or something. It was amazing to drive into Moab and see mountain bikers so openly welcomed.

BMA, our local mountain bike advocacy group, has been working their tails off for years to try to build acceptance. Nevertheless, it constantly loses the battle against hikers and the Audubon society. We mountain bikers can't win for losing - if hikers or equestrians build the trails, mountain bikes aren't welcome. A request for a connector so that mountain bikers don't have to drive or ride on the road from downtown Boulder to frequently used trails - denied, even though it the area in question isn't exactly pristine wilderness in the first place. So then the BMA builds trails with countless volunteer hours, and specifically builds them with lots of switchbacks that prevent mountain bikers from building up much speed - and then get yelled at for building trails that favor mountain bikes because they're too swoopy.

Given all of that, I'm plenty used to being an unwelcome guest at the family dinner. This makes me look real hard at any temptation to ban some other mode of use from the trails.

 

[SShore]

From what I just googled, it's not illegal, but it does require permission.

True, but If the required permission is not requested and granted BEFORE you build the trails, it is illegal.

Here is how it works: mountain bikers build covert trail to ride with friends > friends show other friends > other friends tell everyone about 'cool trail' > cool trail is now drawing too many riders to be covert and the process to make it 'legal' begins. Lots of meetings, lots of promises > New 'legal' trail is now 'multi-use' > hikers and dog walkers begin to enjoy the trail... but maybe it would be better with hand rails and stair steps? > mountain bikers try to accommodate walkers during trail work days by adding things they've asked for (dog wakers are a no show at the trailwork day...) > 'important' dog walker scared by mountain biker > bikes no longer allowed on multi-use trail > told "they should build their own" purpose built mtb trails "somewhere else".

Oil companies must get permits before they explore and extract oil from public lands. If they followed the above example these very same people would be screaming bloody murder.

All I'm saying is practice what you preach or shut up.

 

[newfydog]

Didn't someone just say it's a tiny footprint? I often drive half an hour or more to a trailhead - if I wanted an e-bike, it would be negligible impact compared to what I'm already doing. And I wonder if it even compares to my gas powered mower.

.

A class 1 ebike at full power has 1/12th the power of an average push mower, and 1/60th the power of a riding mower. We usually find it rides best at about 1/4 of full power.

 

[Wilhelmson]

"Excuse me Sir, your kind is not welcome on the singletrack."

 

[Doug Briggs]

Go to Austria in summer - eMTBs and eBikes are everywhere but it is either the older "non biker" demographic getting out of the car and enjoying themselves or experienced bikers extending their range. Not seen a lot of the yobbo behaviour everyone is so fearful of. There is a guy on snowHeads who post degenerative kneed reconstuctions and a hip replacement has literally got a new lease of life from being able to get out and participate in group rides etc.

I've seen all the ego stuff on these type of threads before about being "electricked" and how its a affront to people who have dedicated their lives to being Leadville 100 contenders etc. Guess what - people are doing it for the same reason you do MTB to get a modest buzz from participating in a controlled manner in an enjoyable activity - they aren't out to harsh your vibe. I don't believe that people are really buying them because they are a way round the no dirt bike rules etc.

I'm guessing a yobbo is comparable to a yahoo?

Regardless....

It isn't a fear of this happening, it is first hand experience of this happening.

I see people on rented ATVs and rented snowmobiles on the trails. They are asking for directions and advice on navigating the trails. 'What is the easiest way back?' They are way over their heads from a skills POV. They are seriously at risk of injuring themselves and don't know the rules of the road or how to properly travel on this foreign (to them) terrain. In the case of ATVs they are digging trenches trying to get around. Snowmobiles are getting stuck, abandoned and running amok by getting off trail.

Both of these types of users are inexperienced with the trail system they are utilizing and damaging public land and trails that volunteers (both local and front-rangers) help build and maintain through the legal process. (Around these parts, covert trails are more or less a thing of the past as we (local trail users) know that if we continue with covert trails we'll get shut down. Plus the Town of Breckenridge is actively developing new multi-use trails, albeit with a slant towards MTBs so covert trails are unnecessary.)

So when the yobbos or yahoos start renting eMTBs they are going to follow the same patterns as the two I described; they are the same people essentially: visitors looking for a fun new activity. Over their head technically, lost, and ignorant of the fact that you have to stay on the trails. They quite likely wouldn't be out there if they had to rent snowshoes, walk or pedal without power assist.

They are looking for something fun to do, which I respect, but they aren't educated in proper trail use and etiquette or they choose to ignore the rules for the sake of their fun, which I don't respect.

This returns full circle to the observation that it isn't the equipment but the rider that causes the problem. However the equipment enables the rider to express his ignorance by misuse of the trails.

 

[newfydog]

They quite likely wouldn't be out there if they had to rent snowshoes, walk or pedal without power assist.
.

You won't see much trouble with class 1 ebikes. As soon as they see there is no throttle, and it does not do squat without pedaling, they'll be outa' there.