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Philpug

Philpug

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I know I get as much if not more workout when I am on an Ebike as a regular one. I am out 25-50% longer, I am riding 100% more distance and coming back just as, if not more physically drained.
 

skibob

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I know I get as much if not more workout when I am on an Ebike as a regular one. I am out 25-50% longer, I am riding 100% more distance and coming back just as, if not more physically drained.
I think part of it, especially on an eMTN bike, is that you know you have an insurance policy. You'll climb the next hill, knowing that you'll for sure be able to get back (w/o the walk of shame).
 
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I think part of it, especially on an eMTN bike, is that you know you have an insurance policy. You'll go down the next hill, knowing that you'll for sure be able to get back (w/o the walk of shame).
FIFY. ;)
 

Tom K.

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I know I get as much if not more workout when I am on an Ebike as a regular one. I am out 25-50% longer, I am riding 100% more distance and coming back just as, if not more physically drained.

Oh, come on, now. I suppose that next you'll be telling us you're also having more fun?!
 

Erik Timmerman

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I know I get as much if not more workout when I am on an Ebike as a regular one. I am out 25-50% longer, I am riding 100% more distance and coming back just as, if not more physically drained.

You are staying out longer. That's like saying that a person with an e-bike gets a better workout than a person with a bike that he won't ride. Duh.
 

WadeHoliday

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So, thought I'd chime back in as the old school mtb goob I am...

I've been riding w/ a few friends lately who are coming back from long term injuries and riding ebikes.

With more exposure, my thoughts are still the same as when I left this thread in the fall and Phil and I were going to ride together..
It would make a lot more sense if it were more like the same sport and more on a human scale. There would be less user conflicts with guys climbing up trails on ebikes at 15mph that would usually be ridden up at 5mph, so trail beds get wider, collisions much more likely etc.. People are riding up trails like 3rd divide a downieville, at 15mph, I"m coming down at twice that or so, yikes.

I go back to why the need for 350watts? I still ride pretty well and average 150watts constantly. Do ebikes really feel they have to ride uphill at more than twice the speed an average fit person?

I also hear the twice as much time on the bike comment, but my inverse thought is that if I have less than 45min, I go for a run so I get a workout, if I have 1.5hrs, great, I get a worthwhile workout riding, if I had an ebike, I'd need 3 hours to get the same workout? Doesn't fit with my play schedule, that's for sure. Plus, give everyone with average fitness an ebike and double their mileage.. that would really beat up on the trails... I sure hope they are spending double the time adopting trails and keeping them up. I know I spend dozens of hours each summer maintaining my trails, double that up, right?

I also see why they are so popular in Europe, when you have to climb 2 to 5k to get to fun trails, I'd be thinking about some assistance as well. Big terrain and dirt road climbs, yep. Maybe CO has some of that too. CA, straight to singletrack, 1 to 2 hr loops of fun, no need I can see.

I'm not against this movement, I see the niche and ride w/ guys who were once fit who are using them as a tool to re find that, but I just hope they find a way to make them lighter and the riders keep their pace more human power oriented than motor powered... why can't they make a bike/battery that adds 50-200 watts, adds 5lbs instead of 10-20lbs?

Cheers!
W
 
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Ken_R

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So, thought I'd chime back in as the old school mtb goob I am...

I've been riding w/ a few friends lately who are coming back from long term injuries and riding ebikes.

With more exposure, my thoughts are still the same as when I left this thread in the fall and Phil and I were going to ride together..
It would make a lot more sense if it were more like the same sport and more on a human scale. There would be less user conflicts with guys climbing up trails on ebikes at 15mph that would usually be ridden up at 5mph, so trail beds get wider, collisions much more likely etc.. People are riding up trails like 3rd divide a downieville, at 15mph, I"m coming down at twice that or so, yikes.

I go back to why the need for 350watts? I still ride pretty well and average 150watts constantly. Do ebikes really feel they have to ride uphill at more than twice the speed an average fit person?

I also hear the twice as much time on the bike comment, but my inverse thought is that if I have less than 45min, I go for a run so I get a workout, if I have 1.5hrs, great, I get a worthwhile workout riding, if I had an ebike, I'd need 3 hours to get the same workout? Doesn't fit with my play scheduled, that's for sure. Plus, give everyone with average fitness an ebike and double their mileage.. that would really beat up on the trails... I sure hope they are spending double the time adopting trails and keeping them up. I know I spend dozens of hours each summer maintaining my trails, double that up, right?

I also see why they are so popular in Europe, when you have to climb 2 to 5k to get to fun trails, I'd be thinking about some assistance as well. Big terrain and dirt road climbs, yep. Maybe CO has some of that too. CA, straight to singletrack, 1 to 2 hr loops of fun, no need I can see.

I'm not against this movement, I see the niche and ride w/ guys who were once fit who are using them as a tool to re find that, but I just hope they find a way to make them lighter and the riders keep their pace more human power oriented than motor powered... why can't they make a bike/battery that adds 50-200 watts, adds 5lbs instead of 10-20lbs?

Cheers!
W

I would think 300 watts max output is more than enough, heck even 250 is plenty.
 

Rod9301

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So, thought I'd chime back in as the old school mtb goob I am...

I've been riding w/ a few friends lately who are coming back from long term injuries and riding ebikes.

With more exposure, my thoughts are still the same as when I left this thread in the fall and Phil and I were going to ride together..
It would make a lot more sense if it were more like the same sport and more on a human scale. There would be less user conflicts with guys climbing up trails on ebikes at 15mph that would usually be ridden up at 5mph, so trail beds get wider, collisions much more likely etc.. People are riding up trails like 3rd divide a downieville, at 15mph, I"m coming down at twice that or so, yikes.

I go back to why the need for 350watts? I still ride pretty well and average 150watts constantly. Do ebikes really feel they have to ride uphill at more than twice the speed an average fit person?

I also hear the twice as much time on the bike comment, but my inverse thought is that if I have less than 45min, I go for a run so I get a workout, if I have 1.5hrs, great, I get a worthwhile workout riding, if I had an ebike, I'd need 3 hours to get the same workout? Doesn't fit with my play schedule, that's for sure. Plus, give everyone with average fitness an ebike and double their mileage.. that would really beat up on the trails... I sure hope they are spending double the time adopting trails and keeping them up. I know I spend dozens of hours each summer maintaining my trails, double that up, right?

I also see why they are so popular in Europe, when you have to climb 2 to 5k to get to fun trails, I'd be thinking about some assistance as well. Big terrain and dirt road climbs, yep. Maybe CO has some of that too. CA, straight to singletrack, 1 to 2 hr loops of fun, no need I can see.

I'm not against this movement, I see the niche and ride w/ guys who were once fit who are using them as a tool to re find that, but I just hope they find a way to make them lighter and the riders keep their pace more human power oriented than motor powered... why can't they make a bike/battery that adds 50-200 watts, adds 5lbs instead of 10-20lbs?

Cheers!
W

Why would you need more time on a e bike to get the same exercise as on a regular mountain bike?

It's amazing the misconception people have about e mountain bikes.

And it's always the ones that haven't tried it.
 

LouD-Truckee

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Why do ebikes feel they have to ride uphill at more than twice the speed an average fit person?

It's amazing the misconception people on ebikes have regarding trail manners, politeness, and dare I say.... etiquette....

And it's always the ones on ebikes.....
FIFY..... :D
 

Primoz

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Why would you need more time on a e bike to get the same exercise as on a regular mountain bike?
It's amazing the misconception people have about e mountain bikes.
And it's always the ones that haven't tried it.
Ok maybe I look this a bit too much from my way of riding, but if I stay with that, then you don't need twice the time, but there's simply no way to get same amount of exercise on ebike as you would on normal bike, regardless on how long you stay out there. As soon as you have 250W (what ebikes are officially limited over here in Europe) and even less when you have 750W under your butt, you don't need any exercise at all to come anywhere you want, including steepest and longest hills. It's as simple as that. You don't need to try it, you just need to know a bit about physics and very very little about human power.
I'm probably very fit compared to average population here, yet my max power output for 2min (on end of about 30min test where power is gradually going up for 50W every 2min) is 800W. Something, I can normally sustain for 30min, and not drop dead on end of those 30min, is around 300W. With my weight that's about 4W/kg. If you are slightly overweight, and have 750W under your seat, it means you have you 10W (as you need to spin pedals to control motor power) plus 750W from motor which means you come to almost 8.5W/kg. Top pro (road) riders are considered to be fully juiced when they reach 6.5W/kg ;)
So yeah, I agree, you certainly get more exercise if you are out on emtb lightly spinning pedals then laying at home, but it's nothing but marketing BS to claim, you get same, or even more exercise with moped then on regular bike. Even if you go out with bike for 30min and you sped 3h on moped. Only way to get more is if you run out of battery and you need to pedal back home with that heavy beast for few hours :D
 

Erik Timmerman

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I will say this about ebikes. I've seen a lot of them while gravel riding on the nearest rail-trail. Only once have I had one go past me. I think it would be fair to say that most of the people I do see on them would not otherwise be riding at all, so that's good. They don't belong on the paved bike path in town and in fact they are banned there, but there are tons of them. I watched a group of teens having a skid contest on rented Specialized Vados this weekend. They were sprinting at full speed on the crowded rec path so that they could skid as long as possible. They are banned on pretty much all of our mountain bike trails (per the town and the state) but they are out there. I don't think they've been a problem though we have had complaints. I still think that if the industry adopted geo-fencing we could solve most of the real problems. If people think it's lame or weak or whatever (and they may be right!), that's not really a problem.
 
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Philpug

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A couple of points.

I agree with and have said from the start that Emountainbikes do not need the speeds they are capable of, IMHO 10MPH max should be fine, the same with the max power that is available, the top end is scary for me at least. By limiting this would require smaller and lighter motors (yes, I said "motor") and smaller batteries and this would allow for lighter bike options and to get under 40lb as the norm for a better bike. Of the 4 assists that are available, I would say that I use the lowest a good 80% of the time and the Turbo, maybe 2-4% and that is to go up short climbs but not long stretches.

Work out: I come back just as sweaty and tired and need to refueling after a ride as I do from a ride as I do from my regular ride but I was out longer and went further. But my workout ws significant and I had a blast. Maybe when I get to the fitmess level of Primoz, that might change but at this point, I am physically toast after either when I have a good ride.

Etiquette: Sorry, poor trail etiquette is not just limited to Ebikes, I cannot get over how many times I am on a climb, regardless of which bike I am on that I have to stop and get out of the way of the rider coming down, it is well more than 50% of the time. Some peaple are just asses and inconsiderate to the point that Erik mentioned with teens, they are just being teens and they will would have found some way to create havoc, thats is just what teens do.

These are here to stay, be it industry driven because they are creating a new segment and importantly sales, and people are buying them but there is a shift and they are popular and when the novelty wears off, things will calm down but eventually they will be a very strong percentage of the market just how skiers didn't want snowboarders on theit ski hill...they are called "Ski Areas" for a reason, right? :rolleyes: These will be as popular if not more popular than regular bikes. Will we say good buy to them as we have the manual transmission in cars? I doubt wewill see the less than 10% regular bikes at any point in the future but it is will be going down steadily.
 

Rod9301

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Ok maybe I look this a bit too much from my way of riding, but if I stay with that, then you don't need twice the time, but there's simply no way to get same amount of exercise on ebike as you would on normal bike, regardless on how long you stay out there. As soon as you have 250W (what ebikes are officially limited over here in Europe) and even less when you have 750W under your butt, you don't need any exercise at all to come anywhere you want, including steepest and longest hills. It's as simple as that. You don't need to try it, you just need to know a bit about physics and very very little about human power.
I'm probably very fit compared to average population here, yet my max power output for 2min (on end of about 30min test where power is gradually going up for 50W every 2min) is 800W. Something, I can normally sustain for 30min, and not drop dead on end of those 30min, is around 300W. With my weight that's about 4W/kg. If you are slightly overweight, and have 750W under your seat, it means you have you 10W (as you need to spin pedals to control motor power) plus 750W from motor which means you come to almost 8.5W/kg. Top pro (road) riders are considered to be fully juiced when they reach 6.5W/kg ;)
So yeah, I agree, you certainly get more exercise if you are out on emtb lightly spinning pedals then laying at home, but it's nothing but marketing BS to claim, you get same, or even more exercise with moped then on regular bike. Even if you go out with bike for 30min and you sped 3h on moped. Only way to get more is if you run out of battery and you need to pedal back home with that heavy beast for few hours :D
This is so ignorant i don't even know where to start

I use the same calories per hour on my e mountain bike as my regular bike.

Probably because I'm in the 1st or second setting on my haibike and i go a lot faster uphill.
I'm always going at my limit on either bike, so it makes sense that i would spend the same calories PER HOUR.
 

skibob

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Ok maybe I look this a bit too much from my way of riding, but if I stay with that, then you don't need twice the time, but there's simply no way to get same amount of exercise on ebike as you would on normal bike, regardless on how long you stay out there. As soon as you have 250W (what ebikes are officially limited over here in Europe) and even less when you have 750W under your butt, you don't need any exercise at all to come anywhere you want, including steepest and longest hills. It's as simple as that. You don't need to try it, you just need to know a bit about physics and very very little about human power.
I'm probably very fit compared to average population here, yet my max power output for 2min (on end of about 30min test where power is gradually going up for 50W every 2min) is 800W. Something, I can normally sustain for 30min, and not drop dead on end of those 30min, is around 300W. With my weight that's about 4W/kg. If you are slightly overweight, and have 750W under your seat, it means you have you 10W (as you need to spin pedals to control motor power) plus 750W from motor which means you come to almost 8.5W/kg. Top pro (road) riders are considered to be fully juiced when they reach 6.5W/kg ;)
So yeah, I agree, you certainly get more exercise if you are out on emtb lightly spinning pedals then laying at home, but it's nothing but marketing BS to claim, you get same, or even more exercise with moped then on regular bike. Even if you go out with bike for 30min and you sped 3h on moped. Only way to get more is if you run out of battery and you need to pedal back home with that heavy beast for few hours :D
You are, quite erroneously, assuming that every rider will use the full and complete power available to them. Quite far from the truth.
 

Primoz

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I'm not really ignorant, nor erroneous, I'm just not trying to fool anyone that riding ebike is same as riding bike ;) Since I have way too much time on my hands today, I checked if my physics from uni still works, and did some calculations to actually show you, how much you really "cycle" with emopeds ;)
I took for example one of my climbs in my backyard and here are data:
Uphill is 3.63km long and has 425m of ascent. Without going full speed I my time up is about 25min, which considering my weight and bike weight (plus few other factors that matter) brings that to average power of 252W, average speed of 8.7km/h and average climbing rate of 1020m/h.
Now, if I believe Bosch technical data for their ebike motors, and I don't see reason why not to believe them, there are 4 steps of assist. Eco with 60% assist, Tour with 140%, sport with 240% and Turbo with 340%. Now comes interesting part. Since you are suppose to have same workout on ebike as you have on normal bike, this means, I calculated my own 252W plus motor assist and here are data:

own power: 252W
Speed: 8.7km
time: 25:00min
vam: 1020m/h

eco: 60% = 403W (151W motor 252W own power)
Speed: 13.7km
time: 15:55min
vam: 1600m/h

tour: 140% = 604W total (352W motor 252W own power)
Speed: 19.8km
time: 11:00min
vam: 2320m/h

sport: 240% = 856W total (604 motor 252W own power)
Speed: 25.13km
time: 8:40min
vam: 2942

turbo: 340% = 1108W total (856W motor 252W own power)
Speed: 31.1km
time: 7:00min
vam: 3645m/h

So much about being ignorant ;) If you are riding all the time just on eco, you are 40% faster on that climb, and with 14km/h you would slowly start to have issues riding that trail. If you accidentally turn to Tour mode, you are almost 60% faster and I'm pretty sure there's no way you would ride that trail at 20km/h. Sport and Turbo modes are simply ridiculous, so it's useless to even comment on that.
I guess you can do conclusion out of these data yourself if you are really getting just as much exercise on emtb as you would on normal bike, or you are really just going up with motor and stretching legs adding motor power to the wheels ;)
 

Rod9301

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I'm not really ignorant, nor erroneous, I'm just not trying to fool anyone that riding ebike is same as riding bike ;) Since I have way too much time on my hands today, I checked if my physics from uni still works, and did some calculations to actually show you, how much you really "cycle" with emopeds ;)
I took for example one of my climbs in my backyard and here are data:
Uphill is 3.63km long and has 425m of ascent. Without going full speed I my time up is about 25min, which considering my weight and bike weight (plus few other factors that matter) brings that to average power of 252W, average speed of 8.7km/h and average climbing rate of 1020m/h.
Now, if I believe Bosch technical data for their ebike motors, and I don't see reason why not to believe them, there are 4 steps of assist. Eco with 60% assist, Tour with 140%, sport with 240% and Turbo with 340%. Now comes interesting part. Since you are suppose to have same workout on ebike as you have on normal bike, this means, I calculated my own 252W plus motor assist and here are data:

own power: 252W
Speed: 8.7km
time: 25:00min
vam: 1020m/h

eco: 60% = 403W (151W motor 252W own power)
Speed: 13.7km
time: 15:55min
vam: 1600m/h

tour: 140% = 604W total (352W motor 252W own power)
Speed: 19.8km
time: 11:00min
vam: 2320m/h

sport: 240% = 856W total (604 motor 252W own power)
Speed: 25.13km
time: 8:40min
vam: 2942

turbo: 340% = 1108W total (856W motor 252W own power)
Speed: 31.1km
time: 7:00min
vam: 3645m/h

So much about being ignorant ;) If you are riding all the time just on eco, you are 40% faster on that climb, and with 14km/h you would slowly start to have issues riding that trail. If you accidentally turn to Tour mode, you are almost 60% faster and I'm pretty sure there's no way you would ride that trail at 20km/h. Sport and Turbo modes are simply ridiculous, so it's useless to even comment on that.
I guess you can do conclusion out of these data yourself if you are really getting just as much exercise on emtb as you would on normal bike, or you are really just going up with motor and stretching legs adding motor power to the wheels ;)
I'm not really ignorant, nor erroneous, I'm just not trying to fool anyone that riding ebike is same as riding bike ;) Since I have way too much time on my hands today, I checked if my physics from uni still works, and did some calculations to actually show you, how much you really "cycle" with emopeds ;)
I took for example one of my climbs in my backyard and here are data:
Uphill is 3.63km long and has 425m of ascent. Without going full speed I my time up is about 25min, which considering my weight and bike weight (plus few other factors that matter) brings that to average power of 252W, average speed of 8.7km/h and average climbing rate of 1020m/h.
Now, if I believe Bosch technical data for their ebike motors, and I don't see reason why not to believe them, there are 4 steps of assist. Eco with 60% assist, Tour with 140%, sport with 240% and Turbo with 340%. Now comes interesting part. Since you are suppose to have same workout on ebike as you have on normal bike, this means, I calculated my own 252W plus motor assist and here are data:

own power: 252W
Speed: 8.7km
time: 25:00min
vam: 1020m/h

eco: 60% = 403W (151W motor 252W own power)
Speed: 13.7km
time: 15:55min
vam: 1600m/h

tour: 140% = 604W total (352W motor 252W own power)
Speed: 19.8km
time: 11:00min
vam: 2320m/h

sport: 240% = 856W total (604 motor 252W own power)
Speed: 25.13km
time: 8:40min
vam: 2942

turbo: 340% = 1108W total (856W motor 252W own power)
Speed: 31.1km
time: 7:00min
vam: 3645m/h

So much about being ignorant ;) If you are riding all the time just on eco, you are 40% faster on that climb, and with 14km/h you would slowly start to have issues riding that trail. If you accidentally turn to Tour mode, you are almost 60% faster and I'm pretty sure there's no way you would ride that trail at 20km/h. Sport and Turbo modes are simply ridiculous, so it's useless to even comment on that.
I guess you can do conclusion out of these data yourself if you are really getting just as much exercise on emtb as you would on normal bike, or you are really just going up with motor and stretching legs adding motor power to the wheels ;)
What i said is that you spend the same energy per HOUR.

Of course for any given hill you will spend less energy, but since you cover more terrain in an hour, you will end up spending roughly the same amount of energy, typically limited by your physical ability.
 

Primoz

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What i said is that you spend the same energy per HOUR.
Sure, if you are able to ride twisted rocky singletrail up at 30km/h, or 20 or whatever speed, but basically at least twice as fast (even on lowest possible setting) as you would otherwise. And most of people are not really able to ride at such speed, which means you don't sped same energy PER HOUR. When it comes to this it's really more pure physics and lack of bike handling at insane speed on tricky terrain, then personal perception how much you want to feel you are working even if you don't ;)
 

Tom K.

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^^^ Not very sure about mtb riding, but my wife regularly rides both her "analog" Specialized Ruby and her e-bike Orbea Gain on the road. A lot.

Surprisingly, she only burns about 7 to 9% fewer calories on her e-bike, but covers a LOT more distance -- horizontal and vertical.

TIFWIW, but I thought I'd throw in some real world data, as opposed to theoretical calculations.

Note that I'm FAR from an e-bike advocate, but I also don't find them to be the Spawn of the Devil...;)

I threw that winking emoticon in there just for @Primoz, because it's his favorite! :D
 

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