eBike Electric MTB -- Wow! Philpug's Version

[skibob]

Yeah, batteries are horrid at storing energy compared to gas. Especially when there is free oxygen available.

OTOH, electric motors are 100% efficient and gas less than 50%.

 

[Eleeski]

@skibob Not quite true. Electric motors do have losses - probably at least 10% to the wheels. Generating that power is quite inefficient (solar panels have to run for several years to equal the energy to build them and they are 20% efficient). Battery charging and life incur losses. No magic just because it's electric.

The magic comes from how a small electric motor can subtly improve the feel of a bicycle while keeping a bicycling experience.

@Philpug has an analytical approach to evaluations. His take on performance and feel is worth considering. I'd be interested in having Phil strap on a heart monitor and compare the net workout data between an ebike and a regular mountain bike...

Eric

 

[ScotsSkier]

Here is an interesting perspective:

View attachment 48227

time for a bigger battery!!

 

[skibob]

@skibob Not quite true. Electric motors do have losses - probably at least 10% to the wheels. Generating that power is quite inefficient (solar panels have to run for several years to equal the energy to build them and they are 20% efficient). Battery charging and life incur losses. No magic just because it's electric.

The magic comes from how a small electric motor can subtly improve the feel of a bicycle while keeping a bicycling experience.

@Philpug has an analytical approach to evaluations. His take on performance and feel is worth considering. I'd be interested in having Phil strap on a heart monitor and compare the net workout data between an ebike and a regular mountain bike...

Eric

Yes, but the loss via transmission of power by an electric motor directly coupled to the wheel(s) or axle is substantially less than through a gearbox (transmission). Of course, an electric motor also weighs dramatically less than an internal combustion motor too (also has a much longer service life).

I am not sure where solar came into the equation, but power transmission and storage do incur small losses. Not magic by any means, and it all has a cost. But there is no denying that electric is magnitudes more efficient than gasoline.

But now this thread is drifting like a Talladega NASCAR race . . .

 

[Eleeski]

@skibob Delivered electric power is several times more expensive than delivered natural gas to the home (where you will charge your bike). Certainly not orders of magnitude better.

Possibly worse. I'm not sure how heavy that battery pack is but a 250w gas motor (a big model airplane engine?) and the fuel to run it for two hours might weigh less.

Nobody wants a screaming engine to assist a bicycle ride. So electrics are appropriate. Scale things up and you have a very successful gas motorcycle. Appropriate technology for the use.

To drift the thread back, I wonder if half the battery might suit me better. 500w is a couple hours of boost. Two hours is a long ride for my short attention span. Hopefully I'm not boosting the whole time and can score some recharge on the downhill.

That's why impartial testers will give valuable information.

Eric

 

[Erik Timmerman]

@skibobHopefully I'm not boosting the whole time and can score some recharge on the downhill.

I don't think any of these have regenerative braking. I just don't think that is compatible with a drivetrain that freewheels.

 

[Mike Thomas]

I know I am out of shape, but I don't think that I am that out of shape that I could not ride to the trail head and be this winded. I was more winded/worked in that short ride than I was in my whole e-bike ride that I actually had fun on. I don't feel that the Moterra did that much work of the ride that I was on... My next bike will be an e-bike.

 

[Tricia]

(I did want to post a photo from Jerry of the Day of a Miata with a jetski in the passenger seat which I would title "Phil is training for a triathlon?")

 

[Tricia]

I step away for a few days and come back to things that make me laugh.
Thanks for that.

 

[Brian Likes Pow]

As I get older and they can manage to maybe get the weight down a bit I can see myself getting on one of these. For now Im all about pedaling 100 percent. Some of these climbs around here get a bit ridiculous!

 

[newfydog]

As I get older and they can manage to maybe get the weight down a bit I can see myself getting on one of these. For now Im all about pedaling 100 percent. Some of these climbs around here get a bit ridiculous!

Let me guess: you have not tried one?

When I was younger, I was a decent climber. I briefly held the course record for Vail Pass and finished in the top 10 of the Mt Evans Pro/cat I/II race. I would have loved the bike just as much then.

Road racers normally train in a group, and top riders do a lot of moto-pacing. Yesterday I did a ride that mt bikers usually drive up a paved road to start. I cranked the power up and did the paved climb spinning along at 15-19 mph. I was amazed how much it felt like sitting in on a big pack, spinning along smoother and faster than one could alone.

Then I hit the dirt and was knocked back to 5-7 mph. That felt smoother too. These bikes ought not to be wasted on just us old people.

 

[Seldomski]

Drag reduction argument for a drafting cyclist is interesting. Academics think that drafting assistance can reduce effort of trailing cyclist by 25-50%.

 

[newfydog]

Drag reduction argument for a drafting cyclist is interesting. Academics think that drafting assistance can reduce effort of trailing cyclist by 25-50%.

Of course it does, but it changes the pedaling motion in the process. This is why racers train behind a motorpace bike, they need the faster spin of a racer, not the plod of a touring rider. The motor gives a similar feel.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11809/Ask-the-Pro-The-benefits-and-techniques-of-motor-pacing.aspx

 

[tball]

I know I am out of shape, but I don't think that I am that out of shape that I could not ride to the trail head and be this winded. I was more winded/worked in that short ride than I was in my whole e-bike ride that I actually had fun on. I don't feel that the Moterra did that much work of the ride that I was on but I was ginning ear to ear. If this isn't mountain biking by some standards, sorry, this is getting me out riding, I am getting dirty and sweaty and giggling. My next bike will be an e-bike.

I came across this funny and informative reference to the health benefits of e-bikes, with an (Edit: satirical) spin from a cyclist's perspective:

“Do all those idiots who look like idiots riding those idiot bikes actually get any health benefit from it?”

And the heretical answer is yes, they do. People for Bikes links to a study on its web site that examines this question, albeit in slightly more academic terms than mine. It notes that the most recent study of this question looked at cycling and e-bike riding in Norway and found that e-bike riders, while spending less time and effort than on dino bikes, still get moderate physical activity from it. The researchers define and quantify the phrase “moderate physical activity,” if you’re into such things as facts (I’m not); this phrase is kind of a holy grail in the world of public health because people who get sufficient moderate physical activity 150 minutes a week obtain significant, life-altering health benefits.

The study also notes that many researchers have explored and concluded that “the impacts of active transportation modes,” i.e. getting off your fat ass, have a big effect on physical health. Active transportation modes such as walking, cycling, and, gulp, e-biking, are associated with reduced obesity, cardiovascular disease, and diabetes. Using active transportation modes for even part of a commute is associated with engaging in other physical activities for exercise and recreation (shocking).

Furthermore, the study notes that involvement in active commuting reduces the risk of all-cause mortality and increases the number of years lived without cardiovascular disease. Even smokers benefit, as higher levels of activity result in more years of life expectancy as well as more years of life without disability. The study reports that among a prospective cohort study of adults in living near Copenhagen, active transportation to work via cycling was associated with a 40% decreased risk of mortality, even after controlling for other sources of aerobic physical activity.

To all of this I would say, and I think you would agree, that death, disease, and crippling disability are a small price to pay for not having to ride a heavy motorized bike, happily, helmetless, in flip-flops, with a pair of equally floppy and comfortable dickhider cotton shorts.

Source: I hate your e-bike
​

That whole post is a great read.

Before anyone gets all overly sensitive, the post is very much pro-e-bike, and I agree with it. I still don't think they belong on mountain bike trails where motorized vehicles are prohibited.

@Philpug, if it get's you out riding more, potentially living longer and healthier, and continuing to ski at a high level into your later years, get the e-bike!

 

[Philpug]

I came across this funny and informative reference to the health benefits of e-bikes, with a spin from a cyclist's perspective:

“Do all those idiots who look like idiots riding those idiot bikes actually get any health benefit from it?”

And the heretical answer is yes, they do. People for Bikes links to a study on its web site that examines this question, albeit in slightly more academic terms than mine. It notes that the most recent study of this question looked at cycling and e-bike riding in Norway and found that e-bike riders, while spending less time and effort than on dino bikes, still get moderate physical activity from it. The researchers define and quantify the phrase “moderate physical activity,” if you’re into such things as facts (I’m not); this phrase is kind of a holy grail in the world of public health because people who get sufficient moderate physical activity 150 minutes a week obtain significant, life-altering health benefits.

The study also notes that many researchers have explored and concluded that “the impacts of active transportation modes,” i.e. getting off your fat ass, have a big effect on physical health. Active transportation modes such as walking, cycling, and, gulp, e-biking, are associated with reduced obesity, cardiovascular disease, and diabetes. Using active transportation modes for even part of a commute is associated with engaging in other physical activities for exercise and recreation (shocking).

Furthermore, the study notes that involvement in active commuting reduces the risk of all-cause mortality and increases the number of years lived without cardiovascular disease. Even smokers benefit, as higher levels of activity result in more years of life expectancy as well as more years of life without disability. The study reports that among a prospective cohort study of adults in living near Copenhagen, active transportation to work via cycling was associated with a 40% decreased risk of mortality, even after controlling for other sources of aerobic physical activity.

To all of this I would say, and I think you would agree, that death, disease, and crippling disability are a small price to pay for not having to ride a heavy motorized bike, happily, helmetless, in flip-flops, with a pair of equally floppy and comfortable dickhider cotton shorts.

Source: I hate your e-bike
​

That whole post is a great read.

Before anyone gets all overly sensitive, the post is very much pro-e-bike, and I agree with it. I still don't think they belong on mountain bike trails where motorized vehicles are prohibited.

@Philpug, if it get's you out riding more, potentially living longer and healthier, and continuing to ski at a high level into your later years, get the e-bike!

Wow, he is an angry person, isn't he.

 

[tball]

Wow, he is an angry person, isn't he.

Well, it's satire and just as satirical about cyclists as e-bikes.

Edit: I added satirical to my post so it's clear.

 

[tball]

I saw an old guy rocking this the other day, raising similar questions about where a mobility scooter turns into an electric car:

Lawmakers have some interesting questions to deal with from advancing technology.

Skateboard with a handle electric scooters just got a pilot program in Denver:
https://www.9news.com/article/life/...ot-program-for-electric-scooters/73-569423314

You can't use them in bike lanes or parks, but they are OK on crowded city sidewalks. What could go wrong?

 

[ScottB]

I have been following this a bit, and I was in a bike shop yesterday (in Massachusetts) and asked about ebikes. They don't carry many and NO electric mtn bikes. They are outlawed in my state on almost all trails. Here is what I found. FYI

Massachusetts State Electric Bike Laws, Definition & Legal Operation

DEFINITION OF ELECTRIC BIKE:
The state of Massachusetts (MA) defines electric bikes as a pedal bicycle with a helper motor or a non-pedal bicycle with a motor.

LICENSING AND REGISTRATION:
The state of Massachusetts does NOT require electric bikes to be registered if they meet the definition of a “low-speed electric bicycle” under Federal law (i.e., the bike must have 2-3 wheels, fully operable pedals, an electric motor of less than 750 watts, and a maximum speed of 20 mph when powered solely by the motor).

WHERE TO RIDE:
Electric bikes may ride on all public ways except express state highways where signs specifically prohibiting bicycles have been posted. Electric bikes may be operated in bike lanes but are excluded from off-street recreational bicycle paths.

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/static.peopleforbikes.org/docs/E-Bike Law Handouts_MA_Revision.pdf

This link gives a lot more info and is an interesting read for how Mass has ruled on ebikes. Executive Summary:

STATE: The Massachusetts Department of Conservation and Recreation defines e-bikes as motorized recreational vehicles, with access to roadways that allow motorized vehicles on trails designated for motorized recreational vehicles. There are eight state parks with natural surface trails designated for motorized recreational vehicles.

eMTB GUIDELINES:
On federal, state, county and local trails, e-mountain bike (eMTB) access varies significantly. » Generally, any natural surface trail that is designated as open to both motorized and non-motorized uses is also open to eMTBs. » eMTBs may not be allowed on trails managed for non-motorized activities. » Do not ride your eMTB in areas where the local rules are unclear. Ride legally and only on authorized trails to show that mountain bikers are responsible trail users

 

[newfydog]

No one 'accomidated' (sic) mountain bikers. We forced out way to the table and worked for decades to get access. 'The Person' in your hypothetical needs to put his or her big boy/girl pants on and build some trail for themselves and their friends... which will need to be 'multi use' and open to hikers, joggers and non-motorized bikes. These trails will, of course, by under constant threat of closure to ebikes due to user conflict with other users (who will refuse to help with funding or maintenance). .

Trish encouraged me to keep reading through this thread. I'm sure people are settling into their opinions, ....while every place is different, the ebikers here have contributed as much as any group

Bend will be on every "top 10" MTB or single track list you see. It is become a huge activity here. There was hardly a single track when we moved here.

I have been in it from the start, and know most of the trailbuilders. I have worked on many of them, in fact, every single e-bike rider I know has worked on the trails. Many of our most famous trails were put in with some tape, and then illegally run in by motorcycle. After the track was in, the author would spread the word and we would bike it until it became faster and more rideable.

I'm not saying this is the way to do it, I'm saying this is the way it happened.

No one has a superior claim to our national forest access based on the work they put in, the land belongs to all of us.

Our local paper just ran an editorial "open the trails to electric assist bikes". I have to agree with them, those trails are on public land, and restrictions need to be based on practical matters, not personal feelings. The class 1 pedal assist ebikes mix very well with the other bikes, and ought to have access.

 

[Philpug]

Our local paper just ran an editorial "open the trails to electric assist bikes". I have to agree with them, those trails are on public land, and restrictions need to be based on practical matters, not personal feelings. The class 1 pedal assist ebikes mix very well with the other bikes, and ought to have access.

Can you post a link to it?

I am all for e-bikes. If you read my entry into the Cannondale Bad Habit vs. Trigger comparison, I mention the hill climb time difference between the two bikes with the Trigger coming out ahead 20 seconds over the Bad Habit. Well, Tricia and I took out the leader in the clubhouse Cannondale Trigger 3 and the Cannondale Moterra. Well, I will get the suspense out of the way, the Moterra smoked the Trigger on the climb by over a minute...and that was in just Eco mode. Surpise, it is faster on the climb...well duh. Before I went up Cinnamon Twist, I had to go down it. In the decent the weight of the Moterra was really felt, it was truck like in feel. I truly beleive a E-bike is in our future, it jsut opens up so much more of the trail networks but I don't think they are fully there any (at least) the Moterra is a generation or two out. At 52lb it is just too much bike to toss around and while it has many pluses, the weight is still there. I do want to spend some time on the other offerings from Giant, Trek and even Pivot. Speaking of Pivot, the Shuttle is an awesome bike but the $10K price point is just way too much. I hope they offer a couple of decontented models maybe without the Di2 shifter and a groupo or two drop but retain the carbon fiber frame to keep weight in the low 40's nd if that is at the cost of a lighter battery (and a bit less range)...it is a move in the right direction.

For the rest of the day @Tricia rode the Moterra and I will let her share her views.

Again, thanks BlueZone for the use of the bikes.