eBike Electric MTB -- Wow! Philpug's Version

[Erik Timmerman]

Bingo. I have yet to "crash" going uphill. Slip and fall over maybe, but nothing dramatic.

Oh, I sure have, and it usually involves genitals to the stem or a knee to a shifter clamp. Ouch!

 

[skibob]

Yes, and we all know badly that turns out sometimes. It's an issue in and of itself that is groused about by skiers regularly. Not to mention, with the exception of trails merging, everyone is going the same general direction.



Well, the trails aren't usually even ready, unless we count the bench trails, which are, and I do go ride them. I'd go ride my regular climbs right out the gate if I could, and I do as soon as they are ready. And I huff and puff and know it'll get easier.

Sorry, not changing my opinion. I agree with @tball. They are banned on the entire Park City trail system. If the climbing is too difficult for someone, then they need to train up for it, or go ride somewhere else. How is that any different than the training I've had to put in to learn to ride more technical terrain and therefore have more trails accessible to me? There were (and still are) many rides that were not accessible to me in the past because my skill set wasn't there. I've worked my ass off for the past 4 years to be able to ride stuff that I would never have dreamed of when I first started out. There's something to be said for that sense of accomplishment.

With all due respect, this reads like a hazing argument.

I had to go through hell to get here. So now you have to too.

 

[tball]

I used to race gnarly courses averaging 14. On my ebike, which cuts out at 19 mph, I usually average under 12 for the whole ride. Where did the 10 mph limit come from?

Looking at my Garmin account, my MTB rides average under 10 mph and I'm middle of the pack or a little faster.

What do you suggest is an appropriate max assist speed for an eMTB used on MTB trails? What should be the maximum power allowed to be considered an MTB?

I'm sympathetic to the arguments to allow eMTB's on MTB trails for accessibility for those unable to otherwise ride them. I think something like a 10 or 12 mph assist limit and 100 watts max achieves that goal. Beyond that, they no longer have the characteristics of an MTB and should be treated as a motorized vehicle, IMO.

There are plenty of trails to ride motorized vehicles. They just don't belong on MTB/hiking trails.

 

[Philpug]

Looking at my Garmin account, my MTB rides average under 10 mph and I'm middle of the pack or a little faster.

What do you suggest is an appropriate max assist speed for an eMTB used on MTB trails? What should be the maximum power allowed to be considered an MTB?

I'm sympathetic to the arguments to allow eMTB's on MTB trails for accessibility for those unable to otherwise ride them. I think something like a 10 or 12 mph assist limit and 100 watts max archives that goal. Beyond that, they no longer have the characteristics of an MTB and should be treated as a motorized vehicle, IMO.

There are plenty of trails to ride motorized vehicles. They just don't belong on MTB/hiking trails.

So, you are saying that trails should have a 10-12mph limit? I would venture to say that greater than 90% of the people riding these bikes are NOT going over 10-12MPH. The other <10% that are, are riders that are stong enough that they would be be going over that 10-12 mph on an analog bike anyway. As far as no longer having the characteristics...ride one and come back and say the do not.

I would bet if there were 100 random (beginner, indermediate and expert) riders on a trail network and a quarter or a third or even half were on e-bikes and you watched them and Strava'd, you would not be able to pick out more that half that were on e-bikes based on their speed. The ones that did stand out would be the "experts" and I would venture to say, if you did the same thing again with all being on analog bikes, it would be the same exact riders who stood out and the speeds would be within the same percentages.

 

[SBrown]

Here they just sign up for the one of the many shuttle services and get driven up there.

This is what my head keeps coming back to. And the comparisons to being assisted up the hill for skiing -- in myriad ways. Rope tows, chairlifts, helicopters! What do you all think about snowmobile-assisted skiing? I just feel that I can't accept one but not the other. I haven't seen many arguments yet that I can't just plug in another sport or pasttime, where technology made things easier, and we are ok with it. (Usually after a period of grumbling by purists.)

 

[tball]

So, you are saying that trails should have a 10-12mph limit?

Not at all. I'm saying that beyond that there is no rationalization for e-MTB's based on accessibility. I'm also saying beyond some speed and power limits it's no longer mountain biking it's a motorized activity.

That's a much more open view than most mountain bikers who believe with any power assist it's no longer a mountain bike.

I've still yet to hear an argument why eMTB's should be substantially faster than human powered bikes. I can totally see how it's fun, but it's a different sport that doesn't belong on non-motorized trails.

 

[skibob]

Not at all. I'm saying that beyond that there is no rationalization for e-MTB's based on accessibility. I'm also saying beyond some speed and power limits it's no longer mountain biking it's a motorized activity.

That's a much more open view than most mountain bikers who believe with any power assist it's no longer a mountain bike.

I've still yet to hear an argument why eMTB's should be substantially faster than human powered bikes. I can totally see how it's fun, but it's a different sport that doesn't belong on non-motorized trails.

I've still yet to see any data or arguments that eMTBs ARE faster than human powered bikes.

 

[Philpug]

Not at all. I'm saying that beyond that there is no rationalization for e-MTB's based on accessibility. I'm also saying beyond some speed and power limits it's no longer mountain biking it's a motorized activity.

That's a much more open view than most mountain bikers who believe with any power assist it's no longer a mountain bike.

I've still yet to hear an argument why eMTB's should be substantially faster than human powered bikes. I can totally see how it's fun, but it's a different sport that doesn't belong on non-motorized trails.

Honestly, I have trouble debating with you on this, 10-12 mph would be more than fine with me, it is pretty much my max speed anyway. I will say until you ride one, you are passing judgment without having all of the information. I am notsaying you are going to leave the store with one or start bleeding electrodes but you might get a better idea what they are all about and that they are not the devil incarnated into two wheels.

 

[tball]

I've still yet to see any data or arguments that eMTBs ARE faster than human powered bikes.

They are twice as fast uphill in this test:
https://dirtmountainbike.com/e-bikes/e-mtb-vs-mtb-climbing-test/

It's ridiculous to argue they are not faster when they triple the power output of the human.

They are selling them based on a "new riding sensation" of "uphill flow":
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/experience-ebike/uphill-flow/hometrail/
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/experience-ebike/uphill-flow/uphill-flow-trail/

That's a different sport than mountain biking. Sound like fun. It just doesn't belong on non-motorized mtb/hiking trails.

 

[Lauren]

What do you suggest is an appropriate max assist speed for an eMTB used on MTB trails? What should be the maximum power allowed to be considered an MTB?

The problem is the rated power of a motor will provide vastly different results for a 120lb rider and a 220lb rider.

There are plenty of trails to ride motorized vehicles. They just don't belong on MTB/hiking trails.

I keep coming back to the fact that other people on e-bikes does not impact my personal enjoyment on the trails in anyway. Who cares if they’re faster going up hill? However, restricting them to motorized only trails does restrict their enjoyment. Dirt bikes, ATVs and side-by-sides cause significant amounts of damage to trails and make trails significantly less enjoyable to ride a bicycle on.

You’ll always have the ass-hats that tailgate you up a hill, or potential for someone to get in a over their head...but I don’t see those isolated incidents as a reflection of the sport, that’s a reflection of the individual.

 

[Philpug]

They are twice as fast uphill in this test:
https://dirtmountainbike.com/e-bikes/e-mtb-vs-mtb-climbing-test/

It's ridiculous to argue they are not faster when they triple the power output of the human.

They are selling them based on a "new experience" of "uphill flow":
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/experience-ebike/uphill-flow/hometrail/
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/experience-ebike/uphill-flow/uphill-flow-trail/

That's a different sport than mountain biking. Sound like fun. It just doesn't belong on non-motorized mtb/hiking trails.

If you want to have a discussion about this, you also have to listen and not just state the same thing over again, yes they can have 3x the power of a human, you have said that. Quite frankly, I repled and agree. Move on from that point. I

A Cat 1 rider is rediculously faster than me on the uphill let alone 80% of the other riders. If I am in his/her way they can push me off the trail just as readily as someone that is on an e-bike. Wouldn't you rather have a rider that is NOT in you way on a climb verses one that is? Doesn't that make the other riders experience better? I understand there is a "motor" on these, but it does not run unless you are acuating it by pedaling. The motor is basically a multiplier of your pedaling, similar to your gears on the bike, one revolution of the crank is not 1:1 of how your rear wheel spins. The law was written before these were even thought of. IMHO, it will change to allow these anywhere MTBs are allowed.

 

[skibob]

They are twice as fast uphill in this test:
https://dirtmountainbike.com/e-bikes/e-mtb-vs-mtb-climbing-test/

It's ridiculous to argue they are not faster when they triple the power output of the human.

They are selling them based on a "new riding sensation" of "uphill flow":
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/experience-ebike/uphill-flow/hometrail/
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/experience-ebike/uphill-flow/uphill-flow-trail/

That's a different sport than mountain biking. Sound like fun. It just doesn't belong on non-motorized mtb/hiking trails.

Frankly, I find the argument based on the way the are being marketed to be much stronger than the argument about speed. Twice as fast uphill is a non-sequitur. Why should anybody care that their slow slog uphill is slightly less slow than non-assisted? Your argument was that there was all this additional speed and it would allow the inexperienced to experience MTB and that would be dangerous. But really, there is danger in going uphill at say an elephant's pace instead of a sloth's pace? No, pretty much all of the danger is downhill, right?

Now, as I said in my original post, I can see the "uphill flow" thing being accentuated. Rolling terrain, down one, up the next . . . I pedal that. I think most people do. You get a little boost on an e-bike. What are we talking, 3-5 strokes?

Like I said, arguing from the marketing material is stronger to me than "Oh, the speed!". But neither convince me this is anything other than a new twist. I'll leave you with this final evidence that they are principally the same, from the article you linked:

STANDARD CLIMB
LAPIERRE (EMTB – TURBO MODE) 5mins 45sec AVE 113bpm MAX 130bpm

MTB (BMC Trailfox) 11mins 30sec AVE 136bpm MAX 150bpm

SUPER STEEP - EMTB
TREK (TURBO MODE) 1min 36sec AVE 137bpm MAX 153bpm


TREK (TOUR MODE) 2min 1sec AVE 138bpm MAX 143bpm

LAPIERRE (TURBO MODE) 2min 2sec AVE 128bpm MAX 147bpm

TURBO LEVO (FULL POWER) 2min 23 sec AVE 132bpm MAX 150bpm

HAI DH (TURBO MODE) 2mins 30sec AVE 135bpm MAX 152bpm

STUMPY 6 FATTIE (NONE) 4min 32sec AVE 137bpm MAX 147bpm

EDIT: I was thinking through my statement about all the risk being downhill. Mostly, but not entirely true. I did crash once going uphill. It resulted only in scrapes and bruises, but it was scary enough. I was on a steady climb and getting tired. Huffing and puffing, thinking I would take a break. There was a short but steep rise ahead of me, followed by a relatively wide, flat spot where I could pull off for a break out of the way. But I had to get up that little short but steep rise first. There was an unavoidable rock in the middle of it. ALready weak, it popped my front wheel up and deflected sideways a little. I tried to power through it but then my rear wheel slipped on the rock. Down I went. And slid 10-12 feet down the steep rise and stopped at the less steep part. I dusted myself off and walked it up to the flat wide spot and took a break.

But . . . if I had been on an eMTB I wouldn't have been so tired. And perhaps I could have boosted the assist to power over that little steep rise. In hindsight, i think I would have been safer.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

The obvious upside here is that we can all stop being jerks about wheel size now.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

This is what my head keeps coming back to. And the comparisons to being assisted up the hill for skiing -- in myriad ways. Rope tows, chairlifts, helicopters! What do you all think about snowmobile-assisted skiing? I just feel that I can't accept one but not the other. I haven't seen many arguments yet that I can't just plug in another sport or pasttime, where technology made things easier, and we are ok with it. (Usually after a period of grumbling by purists.)

I don't think comparing it to alpine skiing is the right analogy. Do you Nordic ski? What if a new user group appeared that was twice as fast?

Part of the problem IMHO is this new user group appears and says "Hey, accommodate us! We are going to ride your trails!". It took years to get to where we are now with trails and it can still be fragile in some places.

 

[skibob]

The obvious upside here is that we can all stop being jerks about wheel size now.

Bah! My 29er eMTB is better than your 27.5+ eMTB!

 

[Lauren]

I don't think comparing it to alpine skiing is the right analogy. Do you Nordic ski? What if a new user group appeared that was twice as fast?

E-ski, the newest and fastest way to ski. Coming to a Nordic track near you!

 

[tball]

What do you all think about snowmobile-assisted skiing?

I'm all for snowmobile-assisted skiing where motorized vehicles are allowed. I think violaters should be prosecuted where they are not allowed.

I think that's a great analogy that skiers who don't mountain bike may be better able to relate.

What happens when the inevitable small battery powered climbing assist snow machines become available?

Should they be allowed where snowmobiles are currently illegal? How about inbounds uphill or hike-to?

There is a culture of earning your turns skiing where it's necessary. Same with earning your downhill mountain biking where it's necessary.

Does it make me a Luddite to believe they both should be respected?

 

[tball]

If you want to have a discussion about this, you also have to listen and not just state the same thing over again, yes they can have 3x the power of a human, you have said that. Quite frankly, I repled and agree. Move on from that point.

To be fair, Phil, that reply was to @skibob who claimed: "I've still yet to see any data or arguments that eMTBs ARE faster than human powered bikes." That's why I repeated the evidence.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Seen today.

 

[Philpug]

I took Moterra out again today and again simply I just had fun. While out on a weekend which tends to get more riders out I never passed one other rider going up hill or on the flats. There were a couple of cross trails that I was stopped and looking at the trail map, other riders asked me about the bike and what I thought, if it was mine or just demoing and most said they will need to try one one day. Towards the endo of the day I was passed by another e-bike (Pivot Shuttle) in a service road, I was just lolly gagging and costing along aroung 10 mph, he might have been going 15-20 but it was a slight decent and a speed that a regualr bike and better rider could have been going. The rider was a younger guy, I would say late 20's-30's. If I didn't see the larger downtube or knew it was a Pivot, I wouldn't have given him a second look.

I never used anything above the eco mode, even on the climbs and thus the battery level didn't even drop one bar in the 10 or so miles I rode, on the flats I hit the off button most of the time and that is where the weight of the bike was felt. Next time I want to get out on a Trigger or Bad Habit as another comparision since I haven't spent enough (or really any) time on a modern bike. I would be interested in how that is going to feel, not having the assist but as much as anything, the dropping of the 20 odd pounds.