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tball

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The power is 250W with a 600W max (I don’t know what that means, but others here do).
What that means is the bike's power is more than your average cyclist who can't put out 250 Watts for two hours like the ebike. That combined with the power from the human makes the ebikes, on average, likely to be twice as fast as a human powered bike.

In your OP you make an ebike sound equivalent to a human powered bike. It's not. It's a different form of transport and should be treated as such.

I'm not worried about the conflict between ebikes and mountain bikes. It's the hikers and equestrians I'm concerned about. They already hate mountain bikers and have successfully limited mountain bikes from many trails around here. The conflict between trail users is already bad enough without adding another, faster, user type that will be lumped in with mountain bikers.

I'm fine with ebikes in bike lanes and bike paths where the 20 mph assist limit makes sense and bike commuting longer distances feasible. It's our heavily used MTB trails where I don't believe bikes like the one in the OP belong.

There is no reason they can't make an ebike where the total output (human and assist) is limited to 200 Watts and a max of say 10mph. I'd be fine with that on MTB trails, as it would truly be equivalent to a human powered bike.
 

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I agree with @tball that the power output of the bike should be comparable to a person for them to coexist peacefully with unassisted bikes. However, it may be that the power min/max curve requires 600W top end to get human-like assist at lower RPM/speed. Getting ~100W power at low rpm may be what sets the motor design. The 600W max power isn't something you see unless you are going just the right speed at the right incline. The power spec on the marketing sheet may not be what you typically see. Lot's of assumptions here... you know what that means.


To counter @AmyPJ , imagine that with an e-bike, you could be back on the trails you love immediately early in the season. Then as you get into shape, you dial back the assist or switch to your 'full manual' bike. I think that is pretty cool.
 

skibob

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What that means is the bike's power is more than your average cyclist who can't put out 250 Watts for two hours like the ebike. That combined with the power from the human makes the ebikes, on average, likely to be twice as fast as a human powered bike.

In your OP you make an ebike sound equivalent to a human powered bike. It's not. It's a different form of transport and should be treated as such.

I'm not worried about the conflict between ebikes and mountain bikes. It's the hikers and equestrians I'm concerned about. They already hate mountain bikers and have successfully limited mountain bikes from many trails around here. The conflict between trail users is already bad enough without adding another, faster, user type that will be lumped in with mountain bikers.

I'm fine with ebikes in bike lanes and bike paths where the 20 mph assist limit makes sense and bike commuting longer distances feasible. It's our heavily used MTB trails where I don't believe bikes like the one in the OP belong.

There is no reason they can't make an ebike where the total output (human and assist) is limited to 200 Watts and a max of say 10mph. I'd be fine with that on MTB trails, as it would truly be equivalent to a human powered bike.

Again, when and where are these eMTB riders going to be going fast? The times I've seen them, they are climbing a hill slowly. Faster than they would otherwise? Probably. Would they make it up that hill w/o resting otherwise? Maybe not. Are they going unsafely fast on the uphill? I suppose it would be possible for a serious rider to do, but it would still require considerable input from the rider. Are they going faster on the downhill? I don't even see how that could work.
 

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Again, when and where are these eMTB riders going to be going fast? The times I've seen them, they are climbing a hill slowly. Faster than they would otherwise? Probably. Would they make it up that hill w/o resting otherwise? Maybe not. Are they going unsafely fast on the uphill? I suppose it would be possible for a serious rider to do, but it would still require considerable input from the rider. Are they going faster on the downhill? I don't even see how that could work.
Here's a test where an ebike cut a MTB climb in half:
https://dirtmountainbike.com/e-bikes/e-mtb-vs-mtb-climbing-test/

The physics is pretty simple. With double or more the power of a human-powered bike, ebike speeds mountain biking on the flats and rollers will also be close to double. Below 20 mph wind resistance isn't a huge factor yet. On flats and rollers where a human-powered bike might average 12mph, I bet many ebikes will average close to the max of 20mph where the trail allows.

Yes, downhill is likely similar. My feeling is the increased speeds climbing and on the flats make an ebike a very different animal than a mountain bike. Hikers and equestrians are already terrified of mountain bikes. eBikes going twice the speed are just going to create more conflict and hatred for all things two-wheeled.
 
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Jersey Skier

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eBikes are cool. But they are still motorized bikes. I can see them on some trails, but -- at least near me -- there are lots of trails where uphill climbs are tight, technical, and slow. Getting passed, or being tailgated and feeling forced to move over/take a break for someone less fit than you just sort of sucks. I think they should be a trail-by-trail sort of thing.

Being tailgated and forced to move over for someone more fit than you sucks too, just not for the more fit rider. Bruised ego shouldn't be a reason to limit e-bikes.


Fact is -- ebikes aren't the problem themselves, but they make it easier to act like an asshole on trails where the majority of traffic is going much slower (at least uphill.)

Ebiking is not mountain biking. ( a. General term used for XC trail, enduro, DH biking is a different focus) There is a fundamental difference between a motorized vehicle and a human powered bike. What makes biking so amazing and fun is the challenge of pedaling a bike up a mountainside or across a distance where you are physically challenged for both strength and handling skills. It’s also the joy of the reward on the down that is pretty much the same as earning your tuns on AT gear. A mountain bike Also needs to handle well, brake well. ( Among others attributes); Not just go up a trail which is what seems to be the main focus. Why not just go to a bike park and do lift served riding? I have no issue with e bikes but let’s not confuse them with a bicycle or mountain biking or road biking. They serve a purpose for many who are disabled or those who use them for commuting or for specific trails or areas that are and separate from biking and hiking as we do for motocross. we don’t need a family from Texas getting on e bikes and motoring up Cross country trails where the average speed up is about 5mph or let alone have people with no skills causing issues like @AmyPJ experienced but can access technical areas because of the motor. Other than the ease of getting up a hill, how do these behemoths handle? How do they brake, descend at speed? They are here to stay and will improve over time and have a place and use but let’s not try to put these on par with non motorized sports; these have far more in common with morcyles than bicycles.




Hmm but they both use motors. They both have many times the power of the avg person on a bicycle. They are not bicycles. There’s a reason why some trails are very steep and challenging it’s not because of poor road conditions. They are designed as such to make it more difficult for the biker. You are missing my point. They have a purpose and application but don’t classify them or put them on the same plane as a Mountain Bike. They are expressly banned out here from almost every mountain Bike trail for a reason. In time they will get it sorted out.

Everyone keeps saying how these things will fly up trails at 20mph. If the trail is tight, twisty or rocky, no unskilled rider will make it more than a few feet at those speeds. It still requires the skill to handle the terrain. Even more so, because you need to time your pedaling through technical sections or the ASSIST turns off.

Not sure how these are more like motorcycles than bicycles. If I sit on one and set it on whatever power level you want, I won't go anywhere unless I'm pedaling. Stop pedaling, NO ASSIST. Worst motorcycle ever.
 

AmyPJ

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The same could be said for any ski trail on any mountain in the winter.
Yes, and we all know badly that turns out sometimes. It's an issue in and of itself that is groused about by skiers regularly. Not to mention, with the exception of trails merging, everyone is going the same general direction.

I agree with @tball that the power output of the bike should be comparable to a person for them to coexist peacefully with unassisted bikes. However, it may be that the power min/max curve requires 600W top end to get human-like assist at lower RPM/speed. Getting ~100W power at low rpm may be what sets the motor design. The 600W max power isn't something you see unless you are going just the right speed at the right incline. The power spec on the marketing sheet may not be what you typically see. Lot's of assumptions here... you know what that means.


To counter @AmyPJ , imagine that with an e-bike, you could be back on the trails you love immediately early in the season. Then as you get into shape, you dial back the assist or switch to your 'full manual' bike. I think that is pretty cool.

Well, the trails aren't usually even ready, unless we count the bench trails, which are, and I do go ride them. I'd go ride my regular climbs right out the gate if I could, and I do as soon as they are ready. And I huff and puff and know it'll get easier.

Sorry, not changing my opinion. I agree with @tball. They are banned on the entire Park City trail system. If the climbing is too difficult for someone, then they need to train up for it, or go ride somewhere else. How is that any different than the training I've had to put in to learn to ride more technical terrain and therefore have more trails accessible to me? There were (and still are) many rides that were not accessible to me in the past because my skill set wasn't there. I've worked my ass off for the past 4 years to be able to ride stuff that I would never have dreamed of when I first started out. There's something to be said for that sense of accomplishment.
 

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now, i may not properly understand MTB etiquette, BUT, if I am struggling up a climb and have really slowed down and someone fitter/younger/faster comes up behind me I would expect to pull over and let them pass me.....but it seems now I need to first ask if they are on an e-bike and , if they are, I then need to tell them to go to France and stay behind me no matter how slow I am???...???? have I got that right????:huh:
 

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There is also an e-bike race series...which I don't understand but there is.

I at least KIND of understand e-bike racing. I'm a racer, and a bit bigger than the classic build for that sport. One of the things I absolutely LOVE about mtb racing over road racing is that bike handling skills matter so much more, that it becomes more of a "combi" contest of fitness and skill, rather than an engine contest. E-bike racing would at least possibly be even more so.

I'm still in the not until I hit the big 70 camp.

That is so awesome! One of my contentions is that anybody 70 or over should be able to ride their e-bike any damn where they want to, and fly their freak flag high!

The class 1 ebikes assist up to 20mph. That's too fast for mountain bike trails, much faster than the average rider uphill or on the flats.

In Europe (where we all know everything is better!) the Class 1 e-bikes are limited to 15.5 mph (25 kph), which might be a better cutout speed for mtb ebikes.

Downhill . . . well, I don't really know anybody that pedals downhill, do you?

Really good point.
 
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now, i may not properly understand MTB etiquette, BUT, if I am struggling up a climb and have really slowed down and someone fitter/younger/faster comes up behind me I would expect to pull over and let them pass me.....but it seems now I need to first ask if they are on an e-bike and , if they are, I then need to tell them to go to France and stay behind me no matter how slow I am???...???? have I got that right????:huh:
That is pretty much it.

Who has shuttled two cars on a mountain bike ride? If you think about the typical times you would shuttle is when the start of the ride is at a higher elevation than the end. The Pivot e-bike is called "The Shuttle". I thought is was a silly name until it hit me, with this bike, you don't have to "Shuttle", you can ride back up to your car. so, is "shuttling" frowned upon too?

I am with @ScotsSkier I am finding that mountain biking has more unwritten rules than baseball.
 

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Can anyone explain why e-MTB's are designed to be so much faster than human-powered mountain bikes?

They are not a bit faster; they are a lot faster. It's like showing up at a Miata event with a Corvette.
 

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Can anyone explain why e-MTB's are designed to be so much faster than human-powered mountain bikes?

They are not a bit faster; they are a lot faster. It's like showing up at a Miata event with a Corvette.
From my limited experience the potential speed you "may" be able to go on an e-bike is not realistic because you're riding terrain that demands a slower speed in general.
For instance, I swapped bikes with Phil on our ride to take it up a section of flowy trail and I couldn't (or maybe wouldn't) go faster than I could corner safely.

I just talked to a guy at the bike shop today who lives in SanFrancisco. He rides a bike everywhere and recently invested in an e-bike because of the hills in SF. He freaking loves it. You don't hear other commuters on non assist bikes calling him a cheater.
 
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Can anyone explain why e-MTB's are designed to be so much faster than human-powered mountain bikes?

They are not a bit faster; they are a lot faster. It's like showing up at a Miata event with a Corvette.
Bad analogy trying to use a Miata to state your case. At our local SCCA Solo2 events, the Corvette guys hate when the Miata guy sets the course, it is turnier and the Vettes (and other high HP cars) get smoked. Nice try though ;)

Actually, for a counterpoint view, I searched out "Negative e-bike reviews" and found this video:
He said that he has a regular lap that he tests on and the e-bike was actually slower than his regular analog bike at 1:40. He actually believed that they should be banned from trails not because where they are now but the risk down the road of jail breaking them and when the price comes down and they also become department store bikes and there are too many of them.

In my riding and the test of the Cannondale, I didn't ride on the flats or downhill any faster that I would have on an alalog bike. Up hills was indeed faster, maybe by 50% but the thing is I was able to ride it uphill and not be dead at the top. If was was on a regualr bike I would have been pushing it, one that is no fun and absolutely no statisfaction in that.
 

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OK, @Philpug bad analogy with the Miata, at least for autocross. It's different for a road course or drag strip, of course. In some events horsepower matters while it doesn't so much in others. Same with mountain biking.

In the video you posted horsepower (watts) don't matter much because of the technical course, similar to autocross.

Power matters where I ride. Bikes going up fast in addition to bikes going down fast will doubly piss off already bike-hating hikers and equestrians. Adding more riders with less experience and an easy ability to climb multiple times to bomb the downhills will be a disaster.

There is very little appreciation here for how fragile access is to trails is for mountain bikes.

Again, why do e-MTB's need 300% of the power of human-powered mountain bikes? Why not limit them to the output of an average fit human motor?
 
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OK, @Philpug bad analogy with the Miata, at least for autocross. It's different for a road course or drag strip, of course. In some events horsepower matters while it doesn't so much in others. Same with mountain biking.

In the video you posted horsepower (watts) don't matter much because of the technical course, similar to autocross.

Power matters where I ride. Bikes going up fast in addition to bikes going down fast will doubly piss off already bike-hating hikers and equestrians. Adding more riders with less experience and an easy ability to climb multiple times to bomb the downhills will be a disaster.

There is very little appreciation here for how fragile access is to trails is for mountain bikes.

Again, why do e-MTB's need 300% of the power of human-powered mountain bikes? Why not limit them to the output of an average fit human motor?

@tball where I will agree with you..at least I think I will... is if these bike can get more efficient, ie lighter, the less assist they will need. If they can get the technology/weight down to the mid 30lb range, I think the assist that will be needed will be significanlty less and more in the range you have eluded to it will be a win/win.
 

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There is no reason they can't make an ebike where the total output (human and assist) is limited to 200 Watts and a max of say 10mph. I'd be fine with that on MTB trails, as it would truly be equivalent to a human powered bike.

I used to race gnarly courses averaging 14. On my ebike, which cuts out at 19 mph, I usually average under 12 for the whole ride. Where did the 10 mph limit come from?
 

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If the climbing is too difficult for someone, then they need to train up for it, or go ride somewhere else. .

Here they just sign up for the one of the many shuttle services and get driven up there.
 

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That is so awesome! One of my contentions is that anybody 70 or over should be able to ride their e-bike any damn where they want to, and fly their freak flag high!

Really good point.

Now if we can just get the same age limit on fat skis. And lifts.
 

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Again, when and where are these eMTB riders going to be going fast? The times I've seen them, they are climbing a hill slowly. Faster than they would otherwise? Probably. Would they make it up that hill w/o resting otherwise? Maybe not. Are they going unsafely fast on the uphill? I suppose it would be possible for a serious rider to do, but it would still require considerable input from the rider. Are they going faster on the downhill? I don't even see how that could work.

Bingo. I have yet to "crash" going uphill. Slip and fall over maybe, but nothing dramatic. Bikers tend to crash going downhill, not creeping up a climb..

I descend a bit slower on my ebike. It corners well but I feel the extra weight if I get air off a roller.

Methinks there is a lot of speculation on this thread by people who spend more time typing than riding an e-bike.
 

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