eBike Electric MTB -- Wow! Philpug's Version

[Ron]

Ebiking is not mountain biking. ( a. General term used for XC trail, enduro, DH biking is a different focus) There is a fundamental difference between a motorized vehicle and a human powered bike. What makes biking so amazing and fun is the challenge of pedaling a bike up a mountainside or across a distance where you are physically challenged for both strength and handling skills. It’s also the joy of the reward on the down that is pretty much the same as earning your tuns on AT gear. A mountain bike Also needs to handle well, brake well. ( Among others attributes); Not just go up a trail which is what seems to be the main focus. Why not just go to a bike park and do lift served riding? I have no issue with e bikes but let’s not confuse them with a bicycle or mountain biking or road biking. They serve a purpose for many who are disabled or those who use them for commuting or for specific trails or areas that are and separate from biking and hiking as we do for motocross. we don’t need a family from Texas getting on e bikes and motoring up Cross country trails where the average speed up is about 5mph or let alone have people with no skills causing issues like @AmyPJ experienced but can access technical areas because of the motor. Other than the ease of getting up a hill, how do these behemoths handle? How do they brake, descend at speed? They are here to stay and will improve over time and have a place and use but let’s not try to put these on par with non motorized sports; these have far more in common with morcyles than bicycles.

 

[Bill Talbot]

Ebiking is not mountain biking. ( a. General term used for XC trail, enduro, DH biking is a different focus) There is a fundamental difference between a motorized vehicle and a human powered bike. What makes biking so amazing and fun is the challenge of pedaling a bike up a mountainside or across a distance where you are physically challenged for both strength and handling skills. It’s also the joy of the reward on the down that is pretty much the same as earning your tuns on AT gear. A mountain bike Also needs to handle well, brake well. ( Among others attributes); Not just go up a trail which is what seems to be the main focus. Why not just go to a bike park and do lift served riding? I have no issue with e bikes but let’s not confuse them with a bicycle or mountain biking or road biking. They serve a purpose for many who are disabled or those who use them for commuting or for specific trails or areas that are and separate from biking and hiking as we do for motocross. we don’t need a family from Texas getting on e bikes and motoring up Cross country trails where the average speed up is about 5mph or let alone have people with no skills causing issues like @AmyPJ experienced but can access technical areas because of the motor. Other than the ease of getting up a hill, how do these behemoths handle? How do they brake, descend at speed? They are here to stay and will improve over time and have a place and use but let’s not try to put these on par with non motorized sports; these have far more in common with morcyles than bicycles.

I disagree. I've been MTBing since around 1983 and also an avid dirt biker for a bit longer.
746 watts is about ONE horsepower. These e-bike mtb's on the high setting put out what, half that? So 1/2 a horsepower.
A twenty year old 250 dirtbike puts out 25-35 hp.
E-Bikes are motor assisted bicycles, PERIOD. They have nothing in common with dirtbikes and have almost everything in common with MTBs. No one is making anyone buy one. I've tried one and can see why some folks enjoy them. I won't be buying one personally but so what. @Tricia comment is spot on...the e-bike is just a bike, the person on it may be a potential problem. Once the 'new thing' wears off we'll see what role they will play. If you want to have some real fun, go by them on the trail!!!

 

[Lauren]

They are here to stay and will improve over time and have a place and use but let’s not try to put these on par with non motorized sports; these have far more in common with morcyles than bicycles.

Where they use the same brakes, same forks, same rear shocks, same wheels, same tires, same handlebars, etc, etc, etc, as bicycles, I'd have to disagree with this.

 

[Seldomski]

As battery technology improves, I think we will see more and more of this sort of 'augmented' capability sports equipment. I think many people want to be Iron Man... I think it's only a matter of time before recreational exoskeletons become a thing.

 

[Ron]

Hmm but they both use motors. They both have many times the power of the avg person on a bicycle. They are not bicycles. There’s a reason why some trails are very steep and challenging it’s not because of poor road conditions. They are designed as such to make it more difficult for the biker. You are missing my point. They have a purpose and application but don’t classify them or put them on the same plane as a Mountain Bike. They are expressly banned out here from almost every mountain Bike trail for a reason. In time they will get it sorted out.

 

[Lauren]

Hmm but they both use motors. They both have many times the power of the avg person on a bicycle. They are not bicycles. There’s a reason why some trails are very steep and challenging it’s not because of poor road conditions. They are designed as such to make it more difficult for the biker. You are missing my point. They have a purpose and application but don’t classify them or put them on the same plane as a Mountain Bike. They are expressly banned out here from almost every mountain Bike trail for a reason. In time they will get it sorted out.

Personally I think there's a huge difference between a pedal assist motor or a motor with a throttle. My understanding is that most e-bikes in the mountain biking category are pedal assists, they don't assist anymore above a certain speed. I don't think I'm missing your point at all, I just don't personally agree with it. Right or wrong that they are banned on certain trail systems. In my opinion, I think they should be classified as mountain bikes, and be allowed on all the same trail systems.

 

[tball]

My understanding is that most e-bikes in the mountain biking category are pedal assists, they don't assist anymore above a certain speed.

The class 1 ebikes assist up to 20mph. That's too fast for mountain bike trails, much faster than the average rider uphill or on the flats.

Given the power of these bikes, it's not assistance when they puts you on par or faster than top-level riders. Cut the power down by 75% and make the max assistance speed five mph and I'm okay with them on MTB trails. 10-15mph should be max assistance speed on bike paths, IMO.

They are just too powerful compared to the average cyclist. Make a new Class 0 and .5 of ebikes and allow those on the trails and paths. Nobody would buy them, though, because they wouldn't be any fun because they are too slow.

 

[Mothertucker]

ANY motor disqualifies it as a bicycle, what remains is how you divvy up the trails and roads.

 

[newfydog]

Ebiking is not mountain biking. ... What makes biking so amazing and fun is the challenge of pedaling a bike up a mountainside or across a distance where you are physically challenged for both strength and handling skills. I... A mountain bike Also needs to handle well, brake well. ( Among others attributes); Not just go up a trail which is what seems to be the main focus. Why not just go to a bike park and do lift served riding? ..... these have far more in common with morcyles than bicycles.

Ron, you may not have been on a pedal assist bike, as your views are so far from our experience I wonder if we are talking about the same bikes.

With the good balance and weight distribution of our bikes, they handle very much like any other mtb. They do not handle anything like any motorbike I have ever been on. My wife recently noted she did a loop in the exact same time she did 20 years ago. My speeds are very similar to what I did as a Pro/Expert Cat racer years ago. (there were faster, more powerful riders than me back then, and there are many of them out on the trails now who produce more speed and power than I do with a pedal assist). Riding them is like riding any other bike, just with a bit more energy. They are nothing like riding a motorbike.

As far as what is fun and challenging we all decide that for ourselves.

 

[tball]

Still a lot of ego and self image tied up in the anti eBike. I can't believe it really matters

I'm concerned about the conflict between trail users, not ego. The conflict is already bad enough. Another class of faster, less experienced users on the trail will be bad for mountain bikers. If the ebikes were more on par with the average rider I'd be more open to them.

 

[ScottB]

A mtn biker on a trail is fine and if there is a group of them, there will be different ability and speed levels. The faster ones can be an "ass" to the slower ones, depending on the person. A ebiker on a a trail is fine (I don't buy the argument they will damage the trails more than a mtn bike) and if there is a group, same issues as a mtn bike group. When you mix the mtn biker and ebiker, you have an incompatibility, or at least the potential for one. It seems separate trails or limited ebike boost could be a solution. I don't know how to view this, myself.

If I buy an electric motor cycle, can I ride on the mtn bike trails? Why not? Lot's of different ways to look at this one. I like thinking about how to keep a mix of mtn bikers and ebikers happy on the same trails (like bloods and crips in LA). Limiting ebike power seems like it has merit and might just work. If you want to Turbo your mtn bike, go ride the motorcycle trails. If you need a little Viagra for your ride, limited assist should keep you from blowing away the pack.

 

[Philpug]

Thread is back open. Let’s keep it clean and leave the name calling out. We are better than that.

 

[skibob]

The class 1 ebikes assist up to 20mph. That's too fast for mountain bike trails, much faster than the average rider uphill or on the flats.

Given the power of these bikes, it's not assistance when they puts you on par or faster than top-level riders. Cut the power down by 75% and make the max assistance speed five mph and I'm okay with them on MTB trails. 10-15mph should be max assistance speed on bike paths, IMO.

They are just too powerful compared to the average cyclist. Make a new Class 0 and .5 of ebikes and allow those on the trails and paths. Nobody would buy them, though, because they wouldn't be any fun because they are too slow.

I don't know about you, but sometimes I ride my bike to the trail from my house. Even then, I rarely, if ever, hit 20 mph. But its not a crazy number for the 2.5 miles to Annadel.

Now think carefully about riding MTB trails. I genuinely doubt that anybody is ever approaching 10mph uphill, even with e-assist. Its only helping. In fact, for around me anyway, 5 mph is a pretty aggressive uphill speed. If I had an e-mtb, I can see maybe going that fast on moderate uphills and no way that fast on real steeps. You still have to pedal. It only helps you.

Downhill . . . well, I don't really know anybody that pedals downhill, do you? I mean, little bursts for an obstacle or something. But in general, the e-bike isn't assisting downhill. Remember, you have to pedal to receive assistance. I seriously doubt the e-bike rider is going one iota faster downhill. Again, just because it CAN, doesn't mean it will.

 

[Eleeski]

Life is about having fun. I enjoy riding - sometimes on trails. Why should I care what someone else does. As long as they don't destroy the trail or threaten me, go for it.

Purist rules regarding motors, watts and assistance might belong in races - not the wilderness. Get out and enjoy, however you do it.

I like to ride trails on my road bike.

Eric

 

[ScotsSkier]

This is disgraceful! e-bikes letting just anyone venture out.!... what next? letting everyone have access to fat skis so they can ski powder without spending years developing skills???!!!

and, FTR, I hate uphill as well!!!.... my favorite 11 mile ride here has limited uphill but is mostly rocky technical single track, way more fun for me than just slogging uphill to ride down!

 

[Ken_R]

This video clears up several of the e-bike MTB "concerns":


The climbing part is interesting.

This one as well:

 

[Mendieta]

This is disgraceful! e-bikes letting just anyone venture out.!... what next? letting everyone have access to fat skis so they can ski powder without spending years developing skills???!!!

and, FTR, I hate uphill as well!!!.... my favorite 11 mile ride here has limited uphill but is mostly rocky technical single track, way more fun for me than just slogging uphill to ride down!

Next thing you know people will be using lifts to go uphill, and only ski downhill!

 

[AmyPJ]

I had a skier ski across the back of my skis at A-Basin, and made me stop. He was on Kästles, so all skiers on Kästles are asses, by your assessment of e-bike cheaters.

If it would have been Phil(Or Newfy, or...) on the e-bike riding the same trail as you, he'd have given you your space and likely stayed behind you until the crest. Phil and I rode together when he took this bike out. I was on my Trek EX8. He let me lead the way most of the time, and we rode together just fine. When we were nearly done riding, he took a couple steeper sections because he wanted to get the feel of how it would do in steeper terrain.

Don't hate the equipment because you happened to encounter one ass.

Oh, I dislike it for more reasons than that. I was just giving a personal example of something that actually happened to me. I agree 100% with what @Ron said above. I start my season out riding around the neighborhood, climbing small paved hills just getting myself back into riding shape, and even then, I'm really not ready for the trails yet, but I go ride them and suck wind knowing I'll be back in shape in no time.

 

[AmyPJ]

The class 1 ebikes assist up to 20mph. That's too fast for mountain bike trails, much faster than the average rider uphill or on the flats.

Given the power of these bikes, it's not assistance when they puts you on par or faster than top-level riders. Cut the power down by 75% and make the max assistance speed five mph and I'm okay with them on MTB trails. 10-15mph should be max assistance speed on bike paths, IMO.

They are just too powerful compared to the average cyclist. Make a new Class 0 and .5 of ebikes and allow those on the trails and paths. Nobody would buy them, though, because they wouldn't be any fun because they are too slow.

Yes, this. This is also what our local LBS manager was stating. You're going to have BELOW average skill sets out there riding terrain and speeds of elite level riders. What could go wrong?

 

[Philpug]

Yes, this. This is also what our local LBS manager was stating. You're going to have BELOW average skill sets out there riding terrain and speeds of elite level riders. What could go wrong?

The same could be said for any ski trail on any mountain in the winter.