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ScotsSkier

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This is kind of scary. We should be having a rousing debate over whether the light low watt bike is more useful than the heavier more powerful one? Or which is better, range or speed? Questions about how to make this more fun.

Not a debate as to whether they should exist or how to restrict them.

One interesting subtlety I've noticed, people who actually have ridden them tend to like them and support their use. That has piqued my interest for sure.

Of course the other (not so fun direction) is to complain/gasp at the price. I guess I'll rent.

Eric

Eric, I fully expect you to be building your own!
 

Mike Thomas

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This is where I both respect you and am confused.
I do not have an e-bike, but I'm considering one. I have been involved with the very things that you're talking about (in bold). Though I have not done this while in Tahoe, I have plans of doing so, whether I'm on a traditional full suspension bike, or an e-bike.
Just because someone *may* choose an e-bike does not mean that they haven't put sweat equity into the very things that you, rightly so, take pride in.

Lol big boys don't get to make the rules just because they put some time in. The trail isn't yours dude. Restricting ebikes on some trails makes some sense, like a fly fishing or artificals only area in some waters. But not really trying to pick a fight, I just feel the no ebikes on my singletrack approach will eventually backfire.
Look, the 'rules' are already there for many trails- No Motors. I diidn't make it, but I don't see a 'grey area' here, an electric motor is still a motor.

I think you both are missing my point. I'm not saying "help maintain the trails" or "pay your dues". I am saying: Build your own eMTB trail networks. eMTBs have a motor... it's what the 'e' is all about. It is not human powered mountain biking. It isn't. It is a different 'thing', just like mountain biking isn't hiking. I want you to succeed, I do, but I don't 'owe' anything to a different user group.
 

Eleeski

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Strict adherence to rules will lessen trail maintenance (less use = less maintenance) and disturb less wildlife. But it stifles the creative ways to have fun.

Taken to the extremes it hangs Galileo and hides women in burkas. Or fills the outdoors with people enjoying the experience.

Sharing a private pristine setting is difficult. Says one miles in on a dirt road with no chance of finding a boat driver for the warm glass on the lake teasing me. I need to share - or my activity is lost.

Eric
 

skibob

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Look, the 'rules' are already there for many trails- No Motors. I diidn't make it, but I don't see a 'grey area' here, an electric motor is still a motor.

I think you both are missing my point. I'm not saying "help maintain the trails" or "pay your dues". I am saying: Build your own eMTB trail networks. eMTBs have a motor... it's what the 'e' is all about. It is not human powered mountain biking. It isn't. It is a different 'thing', just like mountain biking isn't hiking. I want you to succeed, I do, but I don't 'owe' anything to a different user group.
FS bikes, 29ers, 27.5, 27.5+, 29+, fatbikes, DH, all were a different "thing". Until they weren't. Good thing we don't have to find different trails to ride each of those on so that the 26er hardtail riders can feel pure . . .

What is the difference, among all of those differences? eMTB is really the only one that enhances the UPHILL experience. I firmly believe that the vast majority of resistance revolves around stoicism and hazing.

If uphill is hard for me, it has to be equally hard for you, or get the f off my mountain . . .
 

jmeb

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I firmly believe that the vast majority of resistance is about believing there is a difference between motorized recreation and non-motorized recreation.

Luckily, our beliefs are just our beliefs. And there are thousands more people out there with equally valid opinions.
 

Mike Thomas

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You have NO idea how much I suffer climbing. Seriously, I could be the poster boy for eMTB, I suck at climbing but have some finesse and am plenty big enough to muscle around a 40+lbs bike. I'm getting older and suffer a bit from respiratory issues at times. The concept of an assist on climbs is intriguing, and as I said, I am aware that I am not getting any younger. I think ebikes are great... but they are NOT bicycles.
It's not hazing. It is a different form of transportation. If you can't see the difference between small variations in wheel diameter and suspension travel (technology making bicycles better) vs motor or no motor (a new type of hybrid MOTORIZED vehicle) then I can't help. I will stop posting.

(I did want to post a photo from Jerry of the Day of a Miata with a jetski in the passenger seat which I would title "Phil is training for a triathlon?")
 

fatbob

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It's different but it's not that different - an average eMTB is much closer to say an Enduro MTB than that MTB is to the original clunkers or my old v brake rigid Stumpy. It 's slightly absurd to want to lump them in the category of all motorised transportation with which they actually have very little in common rather than with bikes where they share 99% DNA.

Get over the technicality or imagine that the battery is flat or tsken off - is it a bike? Yes/No?
 

SBrown

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It's different but it's not that different - an average eMTB is much closer to say an Enduro MTB than that MTB is to the original clunkers or my old v brake rigid Stumpy. It 's slightly absurd to want to lump them in the category of all motorised transportation with which they actually have very little in common rather than with bikes where they share 99% DNA.

Get over the technicality or imagine that the battery is flat or tsken off - is it a bike? Yes/No?

I guess this is the crux ... and I totally agree that it's a bike. Otherwise I guess they could name it "world's shittiest dirtbike" or something like that.
 

jmeb

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Get over the technicality or imagine that the battery is flat or tsken off - is it a bike? Yes/No?

Yes. Take the motor off of it and its a bike. But with a motor on it, it is a motorized vehicle.

If you look at what many (myself included here) are advocating, it is not that eBikes get lumped in with all other motorized vehicles. It is that -- just like they shouldn't get lumped in with human-powered vehicles, they shouldn't get lumped in with dirtbikes/atvs/etc.
 

fatbob

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So with a motor on it and set to zero it's still a bike and fine on bike trails?
 

jmeb

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So with a motor on it and set to zero it's still a bike and fine on bike trails?

Sure.

And if someone wants to put a crankset on a dirtbike and pedal that around on human-powered paths, more power to them.

The problem is one of enforcement in either case. eBike advocates from what I have seen have presented no compelling way for enforcing the type of eBike that would use these trails currently designated for human-power only. And there is a huge range in ebikes. Where are land managers going to have the resources to remove class 2 or 3 bikes while allowing class 1.

We don't have to be on the sides of simply "no ebikes ever on any current human-powered only trails" or "ebikes on all trails all the time." There is a lot of space inbetween those solutions.
 

fatbob

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OK time to let the cat out of the bag.

Here's our law on electrically assisted pedal cycles

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

Simple. Not really heard of anyone up in arms about it.

If you don't define them as motorised vehicles in the first place you don't box yourself in.
 
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Philpug

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Is this a bicycle?
HOW DOES IT WORK?
  • When the motor is on, the rider can either choose to pedal or moto.

    I would say since it can be a "moto" and accelerate under it's own power through a throttle, I would say no.
 

fatbob

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It is part powering the pedal cycle. See I'm not playing your game - there are different ways of thinking about it.

Even in the UK - Northern Ireland laws are peversely completely different and require licensing and full motorbike crash helmets. But that's what you get with a local government run by partisan religious fringes.
 
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Philpug

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OK time to let the cat out of the bag.

Here's our law on electrically assisted pedal cycles

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

Simple. Not really heard of anyone up in arms about it.

If you don't define them as motorised vehicles in the first place you don't box yourself in.
What counts as an EAPC
An EAPC must have pedals that can be used to propel it.

It must show either:
  • the power output
  • the manufacturer of the motor
It must also show either:
  • the battery’s voltage
  • the maximum speed of the bike
Its electric motor:
  • must have a maximum power output of 250 watts
  • should not be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15.5mph
An EAPC can have more than 2 wheels (for example, a tricycle).


The 15.5mph (25kpm) IMHO is more than enough, this is again an area I agree with @tball why do we need 25mph on a Mountain Bike in the US and why is is it 25mph here?
 

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