• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Edge angles:2 degrees versus 3 degrees?

FreddieG

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Posts
40
Location
Delaware, Ohio
Hello All.
Looking at learning the "why" of tuning skis edges. Here is the reason.
I was at Deer valley for a week, and the local ski shop wanted to tune my skis at 2 degrees side/1 degree base.
My skis were tuned at 3 degree side/1 degree base by my local ski technician.
The technician at Deer Valley explanation was that 3 degrees side is for racing only, and two degree would prolong the life of the edges.
After skiing the skis at 2 degree angle, I found out that thwy were more "forgiving", but not as precise in the turns, especially carving on groomers.
Would someone(s) take the time to explain the why of ski angles on the edges? regarding level of skiing, terrain, ski types, and all relevant information.
Much appreciated.
Thank you for reading.
 

Sibhusky

Whitefish, MT
Skier
Joined
Oct 26, 2016
Posts
4,804
Location
Whitefish, MT
There may be slightly longer edge life with 2, but if you've got ice, you probably want 3. Since it's Deer Valley maybe 2 is fine. However, since your skis were already tuned to 3, he's actually used up more edge changing the angle. I think he just didn't want to change the settings on his machine. Now you're going to be returning to the mid Atlantic, where you are going to want those sharper edges. I'd be pissed myself.

I'm up in Montana, doing my own tuning where I don't have to put up with this kind of guff. I have 2° on my powder skis (just in case the edges actually touch something hard enough to be useful) and 3° on my groomer skis, because that makes me more confident on steep hardpack.

I'm sure someone will direct you to an extensive discussion or two on here, complete with diagrams to really explain everything, but I'm not going to reinvent the wheel.
 

Dakine

Far Out
Inactive
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
1,155
Location
Tip of the Mitt
Edge angles determine how the ski engages into the snow as you tip the ski.
For slalom racing on a hard course you might see a tune as extreme as 0 base, 7 side and razor sharp for a high level racer.
Those ski would be so "edgy" that without very precise technique a skier will catch an edge and eat it.
For gs racing on soft snow you might see a typical gs tune of 0.7 base, 3 side with intentionally dulled edges to prevent too early engagement.
The typical recreational tune of 1 base, 2 side and moderately sharp is a forgiving setup that makes it harder to catch an edge when you are cruising with intermediate technique.
That's a start.
If you search you can find more threads on this subject than you can shake a file at.
 
Last edited:

Sibhusky

Whitefish, MT
Skier
Joined
Oct 26, 2016
Posts
4,804
Location
Whitefish, MT
I see elsewhere you had a guy detuning your tips and tails. This stuff is why you need to learn to do it yourself...

Tuning is pretty personal. It definitely impacts your impression of the ski. I've skied differently tuned identical skis back to back at a demo day and it entirely changed what I thought of the ski. Unfortunately, you walk into a shop, some of the time the guy doing the tuning doesn't even ski. Many shops have their standard settings and they give the same tune to everyone that comes in the door, no matter what you ask for. Others will argue with you. Some will say, sure, they'll do what you ask and still give you the standard tune. This stuff drives me up a wall. Granted there are people who can't tell the difference one way or another out there because they are still in learning mode. But the tune can really impact the ski. Learn to do it yourself and the biggest benefit is learning to identify how different tunes make the ski feel differently. You'll know what was really done to the ski, because you're the one doing it.
 

Fuller

Semi Local
Skier
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Posts
1,522
Location
Whitefish or Florida
I haven't invested in a device that actually measures the angle but all of my skis are 3/1, or at least that is what they are intended to be according to my set up. I also tune my own skis so if my tools or technique are not doing the job correctly I can only blame myself.

I don't really see a down side to having a 3 degree side bevel in Deer Valley or anywhere else for that matter btw.
 

Eleeski

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,287
Location
San Diego / skis at Squaw Valley
On ice, the tune is critical. 3 degrees is supposed to hold better but lose it's sharpness quicker. (Drops to the hold of 2 degrees by the end of the day?) I'm not sure I can really feel the difference between 2 and 3 but I can certainly feel nice sharp edges.

On fun packed snow, edges matter but aren't critical. Form can adapt to most reasonable edges. Sharp steep edges might require more skill but might allow more aggressive skiing.

In soft snow, who needs stinkin edges? They are useful for that inevitable icy traverse to the untracked but I can't feel them in powder or crud.

I have a side edge machine that I made out of an old tile saw. I'm guessing the angle is 3 (might be 4) but it's so easy to do the edges that I do my edges before every firm day. Always having fresh sharp edges has really helped my skiing.

I like 3 edges and 0 base. I'm told this slows me down as the edges are too easy to engage. I end up skidding on the edge instead of letting it run when cruising. "I am the slowest skier on the mountain!" So maybe that's true. I like the edges to engage quickly in the bumps so that's a tradeoff I am willing to make. I might tune differently for a timed race but one skidded turn costs me more time than any edge setting. I need to get better before I stress over edge angles.

Eric
 
Thread Starter
TS
F

FreddieG

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Posts
40
Location
Delaware, Ohio
Thank you for all the answers.
I will learn how to do my own edges.
Looks like 1 and three might be the "magic" numbers.
 

Tom K.

Skier Ordinaire
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Dec 20, 2015
Posts
8,399
After skiing the skis at 2 degree angle, I found out that thwy were more "forgiving", but not as precise in the turns, especially carving on groomers.

Exactly.

I have 2° on my powder skis (just in case the edges actually touch something hard enough to be useful) and 3° on my groomer skis, because that makes me more confident on steep hardpack.

This is a simple, effective approach, that allows you to use your brain for other things.

It's also how I tune my skis, so there's that. ;)

I will learn how to do my own edges.

That will be time exceedingly well spent.

I have a true pro do my main two pair of skis once a year. I can keep them near-perfect between those episodes.
 

Atomicman

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
May 6, 2017
Posts
843
The idea a 2 degree side edge dulls faster than a 3 is an old wives tale that has no basis in fact. There is really no reason not to use a 3 degree on all skis. All my skis are .7/3 except my FIS slaloms which are a .7/4. Also for clarity sake, the correct designation is Base edge/Side edge. So no one skis on a 3/1, it's a 1/3 or a 1/2 or a .7/3 where the first number is always the base edge angle. 3 degree side edge is not an extreme edge angle, so don't let anyone tell you it is for racers only.....ridiculous!

Side edge angle has no bearing on catching an edge as some have said above. That is all about base edge angle. The base edge angle determines how rapidly the ski engages when tipped on edge, the side angles determines how well it holds an edge once the ski is tipped on edge.
 

Sibhusky

Whitefish, MT
Skier
Joined
Oct 26, 2016
Posts
4,804
Location
Whitefish, MT
@Atomicman , I think you've got a backwards statement there. Reread after coffee.

a 2 degree side edge dulls faster than a 3 is an old wives tale
Pretty sure you mean the old wives tail tale the other way around.

In any case, the dulling due to the increased angle is unnoticeable relative to the increased bite you'll feel from the ski.
 
Last edited:

Atomicman

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
May 6, 2017
Posts
843
@Atomicman , I think you've got a backwards statement there. Reread after coffee.

a 2 degree side edge dulls faster than a 3 is an old wives tale
Pretty sure you mean the old wives tail tale the other way around.

In any case, the dulling due to the increased angle is unnoticeable relative to the increased bite you'll feel from the ski.
Yep needed one more Espresso!
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,449
I don't buy the 3 deg dulls slower than a two degree. Assuming same base bevel. Possibly if one only carves and doesn't say hockey stop on icy or very firm snow, it may be true. Otherwise, in normal use, it just doesn't follow the rest of the universe of sharpened edges. This is hardly high Rockwell #, (hard), steel we're talking about. And if it were, likely it would chip when throwing them sideways under high stress on ice.

And I don't buy it just because Mike DeSantis says it.
If @Primoz declares it, I'll modify my skepticism. ogsmile
 

Sibhusky

Whitefish, MT
Skier
Joined
Oct 26, 2016
Posts
4,804
Location
Whitefish, MT
We're not talking knives here. We're talking things that are close to right angles. The lost strength of a 1° change (1/88 down to 1/87 or some number like that) is just not enough to over shadow the improved grip on hard surfaces.
 

Dakine

Far Out
Inactive
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
1,155
Location
Tip of the Mitt
For cutting tools in general, how long an edge lasts depends on how well polished that edge is.
Skis use a very high included angle edge, 88 degrees or slightly less, so the edge isn't nearly likely to lose microscopic grains of metal as a 10 degree included angle knife edge.
I don't see that a small difference in a large included angle makes much difference in longevity.
But polish is important and all toolmakers hone cutting tools to improve edge longevity.
That's why I take my edges through the full grit range of my stones ending up at 1200 to get a finely polished edge.
That's why they make 1200 grit stones....
 

Atomicman

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
May 6, 2017
Posts
843
I don't buy the 3 deg dulls slower than a two degree. Assuming same base bevel. Possibly if one only carves and doesn't say hockey stop on icy or very firm snow, it may be true. Otherwise, in normal use, it just doesn't follow the rest of the universe of sharpened edges. This is hardly high Rockwell #, (hard), steel we're talking about. And if it were, likely it would chip when throwing them sideways under high stress on ice.

And I don't buy it just because Mike DeSantis says it.
If @Primoz declares it, I'll modify my skepticism. ogsmile
I corrected my post. No one says it dulls slower and neither did Mike. He said it does not dull faster....
 

Atomicman

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
May 6, 2017
Posts
843
CORRECTED!

The idea a 3 degree side edge dulls faster than a 2 is an old wives tale that has no basis in fact.
There is really no reason not to use a 3 degree on all skis. All my skis are .7/3 except my FIS slaloms which are a .7/4. Also for clarity sake, the correct designation is Base edge/Side edge. So no one skis on a 3/1, it's a 1/3 or a 1/2 or a .7/3 where the first number is always the base edge angle. 3 degree side edge is not an extreme edge angle, so don't let anyone tell you it is for racers only.....ridiculous!
Side edge angle has no bearing on catching an edge as some have said above. That is all about base edge angle. The base edge angle determines how rapidly the ski engages when tipped on edge, the side angles determines how well it holds an edge once the ski is tipped on edge.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,449
Yeah, I'm not really buying that. Perhaps the answer is a 3 dulls and you end up more like a 2 .

I agree it's not for racers only.

In other news, skis are now so sharp in racing that it is becoming a real hazard. I saw photos of a college racer who got cut to the bone in the thigh. Huge cut. Torniquet had to be applied on the hill. He didn't lose the leg, but likely will never ski at that level again. That's extreme, but serious cuts are getting much more common. Expect to see mandated anticut protection when it becomes available. People would use it now if it existed.
The problem is, it doesn't really exist right now in stretch fabric afaik.
 

EricG

Lost somewhere!
Skier
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Posts
1,331
Location
VT
In other news, skis are now so sharp in racing that it is becoming a real hazard. I saw photos of a college racer who got cut to the bone in the thigh. Huge cut. Torniquet had to be applied on the hill. He didn't lose the leg, but likely will never ski at that level again. .

Thats some scary stuff.
 

Atomicman

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
May 6, 2017
Posts
843
Yeah, I'm not really buying that. Perhaps the answer is a 3 dulls and you end up more like a 2 .

I agree it's not for racers only.

In other news, skis are now so sharp in racing that it is becoming a real hazard. I saw photos of a college racer who got cut to the bone in the thigh. Huge cut. Torniquet had to be applied on the hill. He didn't lose the leg, but likely will never ski at that level again. That's extreme, but serious cuts are getting much more common. Expect to see mandated anticut protection when it becomes available. People would use it now if it existed.
The problem is, it doesn't really exist right now in stretch fabric afaik.
Show me some empirical evidence the t slight difference in acute angle of a 3 degree over 2 degree makes any practical difference in how long your edge stays sharp..........This is a fairy-tale, that the 3 dulls faster.......I say NO DIFFERENCE. THE POINT (NO PUN INTENDED) isn't whether a 3 dulls , it is does it dull more quickly then a 2 degree?......NOPE!
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top