DPS Phantom initial stickiness and snow buildup issue

[erjp]

Hi Everyone,

In February, I bought a pair of used, older (2011-12 model) DPS Wailer 112RP Hybrid skis.
The seller wrote that he had applied DPS Phantom on the skis during fall last year and he hasn't skied them since then.
So it would be me using the skis with Phantom on them for the first time and I should expect some initial stickiness, which will go away after 1-2 runs.

I received the skis just in time for a trip to Hokkaido in early February.
The bases of the skis had white residue on them, but I thought, after those first 1-2 runs, everything will be fine.

First, I have to say that it was super cold those few days in Niseko, around -20 to -25 Celsius (-4 to -13 Fahrenheit).
I hit the mountain with the "new" skis and I almost fell down when getting off the first chairlift. The skis barely moved on the snow.
By the time I walked a few meters from the chairlift to a nearby restaurant to see what's wrong, I had a huge pile (about 10 cm or 4 inches in the middle) of snow and ice built up on the base of my skis. I had never seen such a thing before.

I spent 10-15 mins trying to remove the snow/ice from the skis and then, still optimistic, went to a slope to do those initial 1-2 runs, hoping things would improve.
It was a struggle. On mild slopes, I was standing still. It was a weird feeling not being able to slide down a slope and seeing people ski around me.
I found a little steeper, short slope, where I did 5-10 runs, being careful not to break my legs, because the speed of the skis was changing all the time.
Things didn't really improve, the skis were very slow and unpredictable, snow/ice was still building up, and there was still white residue on the base.

I managed to make it down to the nearest base where they had a ski shop.
All they could do there is some cleaning with the machine and dry wax.
This helped me get through the rest of the day (which at this point was only a few more hours) more or less ok, but the skis still weren't good.

Back in the town, I went to a proper ski shop.
When I explained the issue, they were surprised and said they aren't so familiar with Phantom, but what they could do is some base cleaning and hot wax.
After that base cleaning and hot wax, the next day, the skis became perfect.
In fact, for the rest of the season (5-10 more ski days), I was super happy and satisfied with the skis.

I have a two questions related to this strange issue:

1) What do you think the reason was for this extreme stickiness and snow buildup?
My guess is that the seller applied the Phantom in fall, when the sun is not too strong anymore, so the Phantom couldn't penetrate the ski bases properly and most of it just stayed on the outside.
On top of that, the super cold temperatures in Hokkaido didn't help either.
The seller did say though that he applied Phantom to 3 pairs of skis, and with the other 2 pairs he didn't have any issues.

2) Do you think that I can still rely on my skis having Phantom on them? Or should I get Phantom applied again, this time professionally (or just keep waxing them the classical way)?
Is there any way to check if the Phantom is there?
Since the next season is coming up, I'm thinking whether I need to take the skis to a shop for some waxing/tuning.
As you can tell, I'm the type of guy, who considers waxing a chore - that's why Phantom on those skis was a big selling point for me.

Thank you!

 

[Dakine]

I'd like to see some real data that says the Phantom treatment "penetrates" the base.

 

[Started at 53]

My guess is it might have been done with compromised Phantom packets from the original batch. Ask me how I know!!! I got one of them. DPS made things right and then some. All of our skis have since been Phantomized by a shop with the curing station, so it was all done in a very controlled environment.

Best of luck

 

[nesneros]

I'd like to see some real data that says the Phantom treatment "penetrates" the base.

I would like more data on it as well. I know it’s possible for chemicals to change plastics and penetrate them simply because I’ve applied purple primers to PVC pipe and then cut through. You can’t really tell with Phantom, is it a placebo effect? I think DPS would do themselves a huge favor if they presented more technical data.

I had Phantom put on some skis in the spring of 2018 and skied maybe 25 days on them in 2018-2019. They worked fine for me but I’m not certain I’d know the difference. Phantom feels like bare bases when you’re just scooting around in lift lines.

If I were to guess, I think that phantom works by making the plastic slightly more brittle, and/or less likely to form the microscopic PTEX hairs that wax mats down. UV by itself can do that to a plastic (not that I’m saying it’s all the UV, just that plastics can and do change even if they seem like they’d be impermeable).

As for OP’s issue, I don’t think I’ve skied Phantom in temps that cold, so it’s possibly related to that. I usually ski in the 0F-40F range. Most likely the bases weren’t fully or properly cleaned and the extra cold temps didn’t allow any forgiveness for the snow to do an initial scrub of the bases.

 

[JWMN]

To the OP, I would suggest calling DPS and describing the situation to them. I would think they would have an answer. Also, I asked my local shop about Phantom. They said at the big retailer ski show in Utah? a number of retailers were talking about it and some thought it penetrated thru the base and was causing problem with adhesion of the layers of some skis. Very well could have been baseless rumor's. They didn't know if there was any truth to it so they were staying away from it for now.

 

[erjp]

Hello Everyone,

Thank you for the replies!

As for the penetration and the effectiveness of Phantom, I've read almost exclusively good things, so I am assuming that it works. But having some proof for that would be better.
I just took my piste skis (Atomic Redster G9) for a Phantom treatment today...

My guess is it might have been done with compromised Phantom packets from the original batch. Ask me how I know!!! I got one of them. DPS made things right and then some.

Oh, that is interesting! So there was a batch of Phantoms that had similar problems?

As JWMN suggested, perhaps the best thing would be for me to contact DPS to see what they say about the issue.

 

[cantunamunch]

What you saw happen with Phantom is a quite ordinary occurrence when softer ordinary waxes are taken into cold conditions, especially if the soft wax isn't completely brushed off the bases, most especially if the skis are warm when they first hit the snow.

Honestly, I suspect Phantom's response will be that the batch was fine and it was just a cold day and the ski wasn't perfectly brushed out. The local good techs probably used a colder conditions wax and scraped and brushed really well and ...that's pretty much it.

There is a cult of minimalism on some snow forums (Hey, I just wax them and ski them, why complicate things?). What you saw there is the counterargument. Minimalists are really bragging about how good their snow is.

 

[Started at 53]

I would as you say contact DPS, they were great with me when I had a problem. After curing the bases were VERY sticky, I called them and they knew exactly the issue I had and how it transpired.

 

[Jim McDonald]

Where are you in Japan? There are places here that know what they're doing with Phantom.

 

[fatbob]

Usually when a business has screwed me over once I don't take a second shot at throwing money at them. If DPS are willing to refund you inconvenience and give you a free proper treatment then maybe they deserve your loyalty.....

 

[Sibhusky]

Usually when a business has screwed me over once I don't take a second shot at throwing money at them. If DPS are willing to refund you inconvenience and give you a free proper treatment then maybe they deserve your loyalty.....

Well, he has only the seller's word that the DPS was properly applied.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I can see the snow sticking to the skis that had a questionable treatment, but after the first fraction of an inch of snow stuck to the base, the rest is just snow sticking to snow. A sticky base coupled with snow sticking to snow. Certainly Phantom could be the culprit, just ask @Started at 53 , who alludes to a bad Phantom experience.

Enough people haven't had problems with Phantom that I suspect the treatment of your 'sticky' skis was either related to that OR a faulty treatment by the applicator. I don't know what Phantom looks like or behaves if not properly cured. Anything that requires a curing process with specific atmospheric conditions could be suspect.

 

[Started at 53]

@Doug Briggs

no doubt I had a bad package from the initial Kickstarter group. DPS was aware of the problem before I called and made it right. The three pair that have been professionally applied are all amazing, we are big fans

 

[Doug Briggs]

Cool. I'd have been shocked and disappointed if DPS hadn't respond in a favorable way.

 

[crgildart]

@Doug Briggs

no doubt I had a bad package from the initial Kickstarter group. DPS was aware of the problem before I called and made it right. The three pair that have been professionally applied are all amazing, we are big fans

I have little doubt that DPS would make things right with the person who purchased the product from them. However, OP got the skis second hand from a seller who purchased it, assumingly from DPS. If there was bad product out there, it's entirely possible that the original owner got the product gray market instead of from DPS. I can see their side of this if they opt to not send the new owner free product..

 

[Started at 53]

I have little doubt that DPS would make things right with the person who purchased the product from them. However, OP got the skis second hand from a seller who purchased it, assumingly from DPS. If there was bad product out there, it's entirely possible that the original owner got the product gray market instead of from DPS. I can see their side of this if they opt to not send the new owner free product..

The “bad product” was not gray market, it was caused by poor packaging from a vendor that DPS used. DPS became aware of the problem of some of the early packaging problems before I called them due to my VERY sticky to the touch bases.

You are the 2nd or 3rd owner from the sounds of it, but who knows

 

[erjp]

Yes, the thing is that I got the skis (which were second-hand) with Phantom already applied by the seller, but not used yet.
So all I know about the Phantom application is what the seller told me.

However, given that the seller had perfect reviews, was very straightforward and helpful, immediately offered to call me to apologize and answer my questions when I told him about the problems, and then refunded the 2 waxings I had to do in Niseko, I assume he's told me the truth.
He said that the DPS Phantom he applied to his 2 other skis had no problems.

So the differences I can think of are:

1. It was very cold when I did the first runs.
2. 3-4 months had passed between the time when the Phantom was applied and when I did the first run with it.
3. He made a mistake on my skis that he didn't make on his other 2 skis. For example, he didn't cure them properly.
4. Condition of the bases when Phantom was applied.
5. Phantom package/batch used for my skis.

Without knowing how Phantom behaves in the cases above, it's difficult to find out the cause of my issue.
I've contacted DPS, hopefully, they'll give me some more information.

It would also be important to know if after all this, the skis still have the Phantom applied and working, or if I should assume that there is nothing left, so I should wax them normally before the season. Not sure if there's a way to determine this. I probably just have to take them out on the snow and see how they feel.

 

[Unpiste]

The bases of the skis had white residue on them, but I thought, after those first 1-2 runs, everything will be fine.

First, I have to say that it was super cold those few days in Niseko, around -20 to -25 Celsius (-4 to -13 Fahrenheit).

I've been running a few pairs of skis with Phantom for the past year, so I just want to comment on these observations.

First, while my skis were all the 2.0 version and professionally applied, none had anything resembling a white residue when I got them back from the shop. That said, the feel of the bases was definitely noticeably different (it certainly felt like it had something on it), and each time the glide did definitely improve throughout at least the first day of use. That part is definitely expected, and it takes more than 1–2 runs.

Second, my experience is that Phantom works best near freezing temperatures, and based on the Big Sky gathering where temperatures did dip into the low teens (and hit, I think, somewhere below -10°F at night), the glide is not particularly great in cold snow. I'd definitely want to try some cold wax for the temperatures you experienced, though unfortunately I haven't had the chance to do anything resembling a direct comparison (since we rarely get temperatures anywhere near that cold where I ski).

 

[erjp]

First, while my skis were all the 2.0 version and professionally applied, none had anything resembling a white residue when I got them back from the shop.

That is good to know, thank you!
On mine there were very visible, larger spots of white residue.
The brush machine couldn't do anything to the residue, only the base cleaning got rid of it.

I'm not sure if mine got 1.0 or 2.0 - I hadn't asked the seller. 2.0 was released around the time when he had applied Phantom.

Second, my experience is that Phantom works best near freezing temperatures, and based on the Big Sky gathering where temperatures did dip into the low teens (and hit, I think, somewhere below -10°F at night), the glide is not particularly great in cold snow.

That's also useful information to know what to expect.

When I had those initial problems, it was far beyond some performance impact.
I was standing still on mild downward slopes. Even with skins on, it's easier to slide down than it was then.


I'll report back if DPS replies.

 

[silverback]

It might not be the Phantom. Did you take the skis from a warm, moist environment right to the snow?

Your experience sounds like fresh, dry snow freezing onto the bases. I've had this happen when pulling skis from inside a warm snow-cat. It feels like they are stuck in concrete. Scrape the ice and snow off and they are fine. The cleaning on the hill trip might have warmed the skis again.