Dorsiflexion and its role in skiing

[James]

Are you saying that you keep flexing your legs in a turn as the turn forces increase?

I do the opposite, i straighten my leg as the forces increase, to better resist them.

Then in transition, i flex my legs to release

Well it's possible.
These guys prob often have a very short long phase and then they're into the front of the boot as the skis come around.
These guys do extension, retraction, and neither at transition. Meaning just go over. They don't always get real straight for the forces. Two are wcup globe winners.
I'm not sure you could film more and show less skiing, but Salomon tried.

Skiing after 0:35.

 

[JESinstr]

Are you saying that you keep flexing your legs in a turn as the turn forces increase?

I do the opposite, i straighten my leg as the forces increase, to better resist them.

Then in transition, i flex my legs to release

I allow my outside leg to work in a strong flexed position not straight. A straight leg leaves few options in the dynamic environment. It is the inside leg that is more actively flexing in order to enable higher edge angles.

Why would you resist the force that is trying to push you into the turn? That's the force your technique is trying to build. That's your friend!
You build and regulate the force through edging skills and pressure management and of course, proper balance.

On second thought, maybe what you perceive as straightening may be your moving inside the turn but make no mistake, you are able to move inside because you are being pushed by a force other than Gravity.

If you flex to release, that's ok the leg is very capable of substantial vertical travel for the application and release of pressure.

 

[geepers]

To drive your foot into pronation- Weight the inside foot just before/during transition. Inside foot on little toe side. When you release and extend that leg, boom, pronated, on big toe edge and carving.

That early transfer of weight to the inside foot - beginning shortly after the fall line - became my go-to

JF is a vastly better interviewer than Tom G. He listens, recreates what was said, and brings up relevant and interesting questions that get more out of the subject. He'll also remember things and bring them up again.
Gellie in his interviews will often say things like "right...", "yeah..." in a way that could be interpreted as "hurry up and move on". In person, it would be really poor form. In the skype world he kind of gets away with it. But, kudos for doing them at all.
His thing on the foot is somewhat muddled, but that's the issue with off the cuff speaking. It would be much better in writing because you can see what you've said and if it'ts really what you want to communicate.

Here's a video on the ankle. Lots of medical terms. Settles the definition though. In closed chain kinematics, foot on the ground, dorsiflextion is the limb moving towards the foot.

I can't picture -the axis of the ankle of 82deg in the sagital plane? Seems too high.

Good vid find. Commentary has been through one of those "how to compress 15 minutes into 7 without sounding like a chipmunk" software programs.

Question: Are our feet in full closed chain? Seems to me it depends. Feet lightly loaded or in the air - no. Even if loaded to some degree there's a some freedom of movement fore/aft along the direction of the ski.

One thing I did try to work this past season was the sub-talar joint. It felt like a small inwards roll of the foot at the heel. Everything else being equal it seemed to produce that bit extra turn performance.

 

[James]

That early transfer of weight to the inside foot - beginning shortly after the fall line - became my go-to



Good vid find. Commentary has been through one of those "how to compress 15 minutes into 7 without sounding like a chipmunk" software programs.

Question: Are our feet in full closed chain? Seems to me it depends. Feet lightly loaded or in the air - no. Even if loaded to some degree there's a some freedom of movement fore/aft along the direction of the ski.

One thing I did try to work this past season was the sub-talar joint. It felt like a small inwards roll of the foot at the heel. Everything else being equal it seemed to produce that bit extra turn performance.

Closed chain- probably if there's weight on it, but how much? don't know. Inside ski likely foot is open chain unweighted.

So I found out what the effect of lifting the big toe I was describing earlier. It's called the "windlass mechanism". Actually involves all the toes. Tightens the plantar fascia, inverts/supinates the foot, and locks tbe subtalar joint. In walking, it turns the foot into a rigid lever at push off from stance. Apparently some people don't have this, but normally that's what happens.

Since you're just lifting the toesas opposed to pushing off the ground after the stance phase, the effect is likely less. Don't know.
It's not the thing you'd want to do if you're rotating the tibia in to every/pronate the foot as in Tom G's video.
The foot certainly is complicated.

 

[no edge]

JF is a vastly better interviewer than Tom G. He listens, recreates what was said, and brings up relevant and interesting questions that get more out of the subject. He'll also remember things and bring them up again.
Gellie in his interviews will often say things like "right...", "yeah..." in a way that could be interpreted as "hurry up and move on". In person, it would be really poor form. In the skype world he kind of gets away with it. But, kudos for doing them at all.
His thing on the foot is somewhat muddled, but that's the issue with off the cuff speaking. It would be much better in writing because you can see what you've said and if it'ts really what you want to communicate.

Here's a video on the ankle. Lots of medical terms. Settles the definition though. In closed chain kinematics, foot on the ground, dorsiflextion is the limb moving towards the foot.

I can't picture -the axis of the ankle of 82deg in the sagital plane? Seems too high.

Is that a foot?

 

[James]

Is that a foot?

It's not a plane.

 

[SkiMore]

We’re really robust as athletes!!!! Work on your dorsiflexion daily - it will that 12-16 weeks to really change tissue length.

I'm sure I would benefit from working on my dorsiflexion and want start adding some exercises to my routine.
On the wall test, I am 6" on the right and 4 1/2" on the left

Brian - what would be a range of desired dorsiflexion for skiing?

PS: not sure if height and/or leg length is a factor: I'm 6'3" and fairly long legs.

 

[markojp]

I'm sure I would benefit from working on my dorsiflexion and want start adding some exercises to my routine.
On the wall test, I am 6" on the right and 4 1/2" on the left

Brian - what would be a range of desired dorsiflexion for skiing?

PS: not sure if height and/or leg length is a factor: I'm 6'3" and fairly long legs.

Did we add heel lifts in your boots? Can't recall... Hope you're well!

 

[LiquidFeet]

I'm sure I would benefit from working on my dorsiflexion and want start adding some exercises to my routine.
On the wall test, I am 6" on the right and 4 1/2" on the left

Brian - what would be a range of desired dorsiflexion for skiing?

PS: not sure if height and/or leg length is a factor: I'm 6'3" and fairly long legs.

Brian hasn't posted in a while.

 

[SkiMore]

Did we add heel lifts in your boots? Can't recall... Hope you're well!

I hope you are well too. No, we didn't add heel lifts but I am sure open to trying it out.

 

[markojp]

I hope you are well too. No, we didn't add heel lifts but I am sure open to trying it out.

Did you getting any video taken of your skiing this season?,

 

[SkiMore]

Yes, a but only a couple of clips. I'll PM you a link tomorrow.

 

[Loki1]

Rod9301 said:
When you pressure the tips, the ski bends more, so you shorten the turn radius.

It's still a carved turn

Good luck with that.

Mike

What do you mean Mike? What do you disagree with in this statement?

 

[Loki1]

An addition... just saw a reply by @Mike King to your comment "When you pressure the tips the ski bends more." That doesn't make sense to me. Once the edge of the ski bends to contact the snow then it cannot bend any further without deforming the snow. The Jurij vid also shows that. Surely the only way to get more bend is more angle so the edge has more room to travel?

Think about how a ski works. Do you tip it on edge and then it bends to make contact with the snow(surface)? Or is the ski edge in contact with the snow(surface) the entire time? A ski does not bend from the tip to the center. It bends from the center to the tip and tail, through edge angle and positioned pressure. You can bend a ski more at the tip and tail without the other end releasing/unwieghting and skidding.

 

[Mike King]

@Loki what I disagree with in that comment is the notion that when you pressure the tips, the ski bends more, you shorten the radius, and the skis still carve. By pressuring the tips, you disengage the tail and the result can be a shortening of the radius of the turn, but the mechanism is no longer a carved (edge locked) turn. Instead, the tail of the ski is displaced and turning in a wider arc than the tip.

As to whether you can bend a ski more (on hard snow) once the edge contacts the snow, here's a video by Tom Gellie explaining that you cannot.

 

[Steve]

@Mike King I agree that if you pressure the tip only that the tail will skid out, but if you are pressuring both tip and tail, but increase the amount of pressure to the tip while keeping pressure on the tail (change the ratio of pressure) why do you think that the ski stops carving? Instead of describing part of a circle, the skis are describing part of an oval - still able to be edge locked. At least that's how I imagine it.

 

[Mike King]

@Steve, the only shapes that can travel along their length without displacement are a line and a segment of a circle -- any other shape will have displacement.

 

[Mike King]

@Mike King I agree that if you pressure the tip only that the tail will skid out, but if you are pressuring both tip and tail, but increase the amount of pressure to the tip while keeping pressure on the tail (change the ratio of pressure) why do you think that the ski stops carving? Instead of describing part of a circle, the skis are describing part of an oval - still able to be edge locked. At least that's how I imagine it.

Let's also recognize that there is a wide degree of "skid" that's available depending on how one manipulates directing pressure along the length of the ski. Sure, there's times when what is desired is a pure carved turn, but in reality, 99+% of skiing, and even World Cup racing, what we are looking for is turning the ski inside the radius that would arise from a pure carve.

One of the big revelations to me over the past season or so is how important it is to be able to manipulate pressure to achieve the result desired. My internal belief system has significantly evolved -- I was a "stand in the center of the ski" advocate, but now I believe that pressure needs to be manipulated with intent to achieve a desired outcome.

A big personal influence for me has been Tom Gellie. Right now I've been watching his webinar on arches of the feet and levers as they apply to skiing. Let me just say that these videos are truly mind blowing -- and have provided me with a lot of the missing links to tie everything together.

Mike

 

[LiquidFeet]

....As to whether you can bend a ski more (on hard snow) once the edge contacts the snow, here's a video by Tom Gellie explaining that you cannot.

Mike, just to clarify, Tom says over and over in this video that you bend the ski more by tipping it to a higher edge angle (on hard snow like the wooden floor). He shows the ski at an almost 90º angle to the floor, and mentions that at that angle it might slide out. So one can bend a ski more once the edge contacts the snow... by tipping it to a higher edge angle. I assume you agree.

I've seen race kids pouncing on the ski at the fall line in an attempt to... do what? I assume bend it more. That sure doesn't work.

 

[Mike King]

Absolutely I agree. But you can't bend it on hard snow with pressure.