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JC Ski

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Mar 1, 2023
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74
Location
Minnesota
So what movement will you use to get your "hips up and foward"?

Not sure! At this point, that thought alone has been enough to make it work. I'll focus more specifically when I get on snow again. It might be what you're describing:
just like using a leg curl machine in a gym.
Definitely will just have to try this one, it's so hard for me to be confident in how muscle activation will impact position of feet and skis vs joint angles. I think what I needed to correct was too much knee flexion for my given stance, not sure hamstring engagement will be the cue for me, but very interested! I'll start making a list of things to try one by one.

Not sure where you're going with this, but clearly you need to keep pulling the get back if you feel that you are in the back seat.
If you stay vertically above your center of foot on a steep pitch, you're squarely in the back seat. Hence pulling your feet back more like you are saying.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just confused on how you're pulling your feet back. Is this also hamstring activation? When I think of pulling my feet back I think of TA activation, but hamstrings are much larger and more powerful muscle groups, so that would make sense to me, just need to try it out!
 

JC Ski

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Mar 1, 2023
Posts
74
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Minnesota
Great, my girlfriend saw me trying this out and thinks I'm crazy. Put my feet on a blanket on the wood floor to reduce friction, didn't quite work, but I think I see what you're getting at with hamstring curl type activation @Noodler

She also might think I'm crazy due to furiously typing out long ski talk forum posts, who's to say
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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Oct 4, 2017
Posts
6,434
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Denver, CO
Great, my girlfriend saw me trying this out and thinks I'm crazy. Put my feet on a blanket on the wood floor to reduce friction, didn't quite work, but I think I see what you're getting at with hamstring curl type activation @Noodler

She also might think I'm crazy due to furiously typing out long ski talk forum posts, who's to say

Being forward for skiing simply requires having your hips ahead of your heels. A piece of the discussion in this thread points out that the TA is a relatively weak muscle. The forces of skiing can easily overpower it, so use of the TA to close the ankle is not sufficient when you must seriously get forward.

I like your idea of a blanket on a wood floor. You would get more of the feel if you're in ski boots and even more if you're actually snapped into your skis. Note that this movement is primarily used for the inside ski, but both skis can be pulled back with a double leg curl.
 

Henry

Out on the slopes
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Sep 7, 2019
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1,247
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Traveling in the great Northwest
Making the ankle flex or allowing it to flex? Making the ankle flex by contracting the tibialis anterior muscle on the front of your lower leg is a weak movement. It's just a small muscle. This can work for the skier needing a very small adjustment of their position. Allowing the ankle to flex while contracting the big, strong hamstring muscles on the backs of the legs is a stronger, faster, less tiring, more effective movement. Pull both feet strongly back to initiate the new turn. Continue pulling the inside foot back during the turn to maintain fore & aft balance of the body center of mass over the skis' sweet spot.

I skied with a fellow who could not dorsiflex his ankles. He had a congenital structural situation where they did not flex. He had real problems getting centered over his skis. The solution for him was to raise his heels by shims under the heel bindings and heel pads in boots able to accommodate the heel lifts. Most of us don't need anything like that.
 

JC Ski

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Mar 1, 2023
Posts
74
Location
Minnesota
Making the ankle flex or allowing it to flex? Making the ankle flex by contracting the tibialis anterior muscle on the front of your lower leg is a weak movement. It's just a small muscle. This can work for the skier needing a very small adjustment of their position. Allowing the ankle to flex while contracting the big, strong hamstring muscles on the backs of the legs is a stronger, faster, less tiring, more effective movement. Pull both feet strongly back to initiate the new turn. Continue pulling the inside foot back during the turn to maintain fore & aft balance of the body center of mass over the skis' sweet spot.

I skied with a fellow who could not dorsiflex his ankles. He had a congenital structural situation where they did not flex. He had real problems getting centered over his skis. The solution for him was to raise his heels by shims under the heel bindings and heel pads in boots able to accommodate the heel lifts. Most of us don't need anything like that.

I'm liking this hamstring pull back idea more and more every time someone brings it up. I had a non -skier try to reduce the ankle joint angle and asked what muscles they felt like they were using. Immediate answer was hamstring.

Glad that fellow was able to find something that worked well for him. I think we're all just trying to do that.
 
Thread Starter
TS
LiquidFeet

LiquidFeet

instructor
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Nov 12, 2015
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6,725
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New England
I think you can get by with a range of balance from centered between binding toe and heel, to the center of your binding toe piece. Once you are ahead of the binding toe piece, you are out of balance (also assuming frame of reference changes based on angle right?). Reason for this is binding toe and heel are where your boots act on the skis. Might be a little more complicated with a race plate or system binding. So you can technically balance entirely on the binding toe piece and be perfectly in balance (not creating a torque on the ski?) (Also ignoring camber at the moment because this stuff is complicated, maybe it isn't insignificant for balance so then we bring it back in). Then we would agree that you generally probably want your CoM somewhere between center of binding and binding toe piece.
Whoah. Just checked this thread. That's some detailed thinking you are doing while stuck indoors. I don't think this line of thought is going to do you any good when you get out on snow. When you are in motion on the snow you need to be thinking of how your skis interact with the snow, not where your body weight is relative to binding parts.

You need to be sensing how your outside ski's shovel and tail are interacting with the snow, and to what extent those interactions match. Are they (shovel and tail) each gripping more or less equally? Are they slipping more or less equally? If the tail is producing all the perceptible sensations between ski and snow, then you are probably back seat with the shovels light. If you can feel the front of the ski gripping the snow and the tail losing its grip and slipping away, then you are too far forward at that moment in the turn. If you can feel the tip and the tail gripping the snow the way you want them to through the entire turn, you are in control and neither too far fore or aft. This goes for slipping turns, and for hybrids (grip with slip).

Anatomy, delta, ramp angle and binding placement have impacts on how a skier accomplishes this control of tip to tail ski-snow interaction. So "it depends" makes the most sense when different skiers give advice on how to maintain this control.

Here's a list of what I've read here so far in this thread, plus some more. Personal anatomy and gear details impact what combination of these will work for you. Trial and error are called for.

Dorsiflex
--Use muscle contraction of the TA to maintain firm shin-tongue contact. Shin should rise up from the ski tilted forward diagonally, not at a right angle.

Pull feet back
--This feels as if you are trying to raise the tails behind you. Keep feet back there. Check as you ski - are feet back? (Do not pull the legs back.)

Keep hips forward
--Keep hips hovering over the fronts of the skis so that the upper body's weight hovers over the shovels. Since the tibia is pressed onto the tongue due to dorsiflexion, the forward body weight levers the shovel downward. Do not ski in the toilet seat position.

Balance over the arch
--feel your underfoot pressure focused there, not on the balls of your feet and not on your heels.

OR
Balance directly beneath the tibia
--This spot is at the back-of-arch/front-of-heel (aka "arch-heel"). Feel underfoot pressure focused on the arch-heel. This is not back-seat because the tongue-shin pressure and management of upper body position will press the shovels down.

Keep hands and arms forward
--Hold elbows in front of jacket's side seams with hands out. Arms have weight. Do not swing the arms, swing the basket of the pole. Do this from the wrist, do not swing the arrm/hand from the shoulder.


Here's my suggestion, which is what works for me dependent on my gear and anatomy. YMMV.

--In order to control shovel/tip pressure, lever the front of the ski down onto the snow. Get the levering effect by maintaining continuous tongue-shin contact and at the same time manipulating upper body forward position (move hips more forward aaaor less so). Holding/pulling feet back, maintaining dorsiflexion and keeping arms/hands forward is necessary to do this.

--In order to control tail pressure, keep body weight over the arch-heel spot. This works best when you maintain dorsiflexion and foot pull-back while managing how far forward and up your hips are.

--Manage the balance between shovel/tip pressure and tail pressure by moving the upper body either more forward or less forward as it hovers over the fronts of the skis. Arch-heel will take care of the tail pressure.
 

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