Dog nutrition: what do you feed your pooch?

[DanoT]

I feed my dog Acana which is on the list. I recently got some free samples of some other dog food that is not on the list and she likes it mixed in with the Acana, so I was thinking of switching over. But it turns out the new food is also grain free, so I will see if I find some "contains grains" kibble to mix in.

One of the red flags in the article for me though was the reference to the diet in the wild of the dog's cousin the wolf and how its prey eats grain. Huh?? Deer. moose, elk. etc eat grass and and needles off trees. Rice, wheat, oats are not available in the wild. And besides don't wolves mostly feed on small rodents?

 

[firebanex]

Our border collie eats Fromm Chicken al la veg and Beniful Healthy Weight chicken.. mostly because we went through about 6 different kinds of food as he was growing up as a puppy and these are the two that he will eat. He's in great health and stays consistently at 47 lbs. The family dogs prior to this one all at some variant of cheap dry food and lived full and long lives. Injuries unrelated to diet is what caused them to leave us (dog fight, genetic spine degeneration, and non healing broken toes that then got chewed off and then infected compounded by that leg being broken as a puppy and not healing quite right, we are still irritated at that vet who didn't set the leg correctly and caused so many other problems).

I looked over that list of food and decided as well that there wasn't enough data to really cause a change in feeding my dog. I'm not willing to attempt to make my dog eat a different food just because it's on that list, my dog won't eat other foods even if he is starving.

 

[EricG]

finally switched to ProPlan maybe 20-ish years back. .

We used ProPlan for years and our Berners always tolerated it well. It was relatively easy to get and reasonably priced. Plus as you mentioned rarely had recall concerns.

We have our rescue Saint Bernard on Taste of the Wild which is on the list. I’ve tried to transition her to ProPlan but she just won’t eat it. Our vet suggested we just leave it be for now and maybe try again in another 6-8 months.

 

[Tricia]

Hoo boy. I’m gonna have to take some ibuprofen before I would be able to type my opinion on this subject.

I hold your thoughts on this in the absolute highest regard.

That being said, I fed Ziggy food from Costco that didn't have dyes in it because red dye tended to upset his tummy. But a few years ago he developed pancreatitis and we put him on Royal Canin Low Fat High Fiber dog food via prescription and fed him that until the end.
If I had to do it over again, I'd consult @bbinder for the dog food recommendation over reading reviews on Costco's website, especially after watching Ziggy suffer for a couple years.

 

[bbinder]

Nothing makes people go 0 to 100 real quick like a good dog argument..

And there are few things that people are more dogmatic about than what they think is best for their pets.

Most of the advertising, discussion/promotion of ingredients, promotion of benefits of certain benefits, etc. is aimed at marketing to people. Obviously, dogs do not make decisions on what type of food is purchased for them. Because of this, many trends in pet food and ingredients are based on popular assumptions and not on science. For example: 40 years ago, the main protein source in dog foods was either chicken or beef. When veterinary dermatologists were suspicious of a food allergy or intolerance, they would suggest feeding a protein and carbohydrate source that the dog had not been exposed to previously. Lamb and rice was the usual recommendation, because none of the commercial dog foods had lamb or rice as an ingredient. Then, some dumb-ass decided that they would formulate a commercial pet food with lamb and rice and use the tag line that veterinary dermatologists recommend lamb and rice more than any other ingredients - so it must be better for your dog, right? Gradually, we could no longer use lamb and rice as a hypo-allergenic diet. We had to find other protein sources, and as quickly as we did the commercial pet food companies responded with their own. And the deep, dark secret is that the limited ingredient pet food that you buy in the store that advertises "no chicken (or whatever) used as an ingredient" has enough parts per million of chicken (or whatever) in it to elicit an allergic reaction. So now, we are forced to use very expensive hydrolyzed protein prescription diets to effectively rule out food allergies. (And, by the way, a food allergy trial can take 12 weeks of eating nothing but the prescribed hypoallergenic food - a single bite of something different will invalidate the entire food trial).

So it goes with many ingredients. By-products get a bad rap. Byproducts includes organ meat and all the other things other than muscle. As a whole, byproducts are more digestible and have more nutrition than muscle alone. Grain is not a problem for the average dog to eat. In fact, 10,000 years ago dogs evolved to digest grain better than their wild counterparts. I think that the current trend in grain free dog foods is aimed at the increasing numbers of people that are gluten intolerant (which I think is Monsanto's fault. But that is a whole 'nother can of worms).

There is no documented benefit to feeding a grain free diet to the average dog. Period. The current connection between grain free diets and dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) is an accidental finding. Yes, the numbers of reported cases is small, and the causative factor is (as yet) unknown; but the fact remains that there has been a disturbing rise in the numbers of these cases over the past few years. This alone is enough to make me tell my clients not to feed grain free until this is sorted out.

SO what should you feed? And why? This is what I tell my clients: There is no one best dog food or way to make dog food. There is little to no regulation on the claims that a pet food manufacturer can make. "Organic" and "natural" are all but meaningless terms when seen on a dog food bag. A company that claims that they have no added "whatever' may be sourcing ingredients from places that add all kind of "whatever" before they ship. The only restriction is that an approval by AAFCO (the American Association of Feed Control Officers) cannot be put on a bag unless the company has gone through actual feeding trials and/or nutrient analysis. (we can get started on the validity of analysis for nutrients, but: 'nother can of worms...). So, there are many good pets foods on the market, few poor ones. I may love Brand A of food because of quality, reputation, etc., but your dog might not do as well on it as Brand B. This doesn't make Brand A "bad'. It means that there is an intangible difference in how your dog processes each food.

I personally like the premium brands because of consistency of ingredients. For example, Purina makes both Dog Chow and Pro Plan. The difference is more than just labeling. With Dog Chow, they use the commodity markets to buy the cheapest ingredients to make each batch of food (while maintaining equal nutritional quality); with Pro Plan, a more consistent recipe is used and is thus more expensive to make. As we seem to hear a lot these days, it is very simple.

Because of the long time in the marketplace, the commitment to nutrition research, and the willingness to own up to errors and make changes based on science, I tend to stick with the big names in the industry when making recommendations. This doesn't mean that I think that the smaller companies are inferior. With the huge numbers of brands on the market these days, there is no way that I can keep up with the relative nutritive quality of all of the foods. And I consider myself an expert compared to my clients. (Of course, many of my clients will disagree with this point, because they read something on the internet that counters my recommendation...)

My take home point is to look for the AAFCO label, and don't stress too much. And don't listen to anyone who says that "whatever" food is the best. It simply isn't true. There is nothing magical about Blue Buffalo, and Science Diet does not cause cancer. There may be some validity in changing brands periodically in order to average out any micro nutrients that may be in different foods (just don't try it with my dog - she will get diarrhea and poop all over your house). Home cooking a balanced recipe can work, but studies show that most people become lazy about preparation and ultimately feed an imbalanced diet (I had a patient that was fed on table scraps for years except had no thought to balanced nutrition. At age 12, the dog sneezed and bounced her jaw on the floor causing her mandible to shatter - the xrays showed that her bones were as thin as a piece of paper.)

Prescription diets are a subject unto themselves. There is a lot of documentation that prescription diets for a given condition can lengthen the life of a patient with that condition.

I guess that I didn't need the ibuprofen after all.

 

[Tricia]

Dogs are animals and have different dietary needs than humans. Too many people want to humanize animals.

 

[scott43]

Some people want to make their cats vegetarians..

 

[pete]

Okay, fine. I AM looking at maybe doing a mix of roll-our-own and a grain-inclusive dog food.

Here's an interesting list (note: several grain-free formulations are in the list, including Orijen, which was identified in 12 (not 10 as I said above) cases). For now, it's probably a safer bet to avoid the grain-free formulations): https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-dog-foods/best-dry-dog-foods/ ... several of these are cheaper than the Orijen food I've been buying, too, with higher protein content, although they largely list <meat> meal as the first ingredient, which can be a crapshoot.

I note that the dog food project suggests against dry dog food, but, like, yeah, oof.

Kirkland (Costco) dry. Puppy-adult-senior. Our last lab made it to 15 or 16. Our current one just turned 13. Puppies are now two and doing fine.

I noted the article as to my daughters reaction, and fretting her dog's health. Overall I simply buy a brand wise those I feel would be more consistent in control and quality. I rotate foods all the time to try and ensure if one brand misses (or overdoes) a additive for balance, another may make up for it. I blend between bags and my pooches haven't had issues with gas or upset stomachs.

I did try Wildology but both my dogs started some scratching .. so I'll buy other brands, but too, I have no hard fact that Wildology caused this .. easily could have been recent rainy string of weather, batch of bugs or maybe some snack food I tossed over to them. But this was an easy change and their scratching has departed.

Point is that any pooch may be more or less sensitive to any brand.

I buy what's on sale, rotate back to 3-4 brands I've used and mix in others.

I agree that dogs will do fine on most anything. My parents seldom bought anything apart from a local grain co-ops basic big bag kibble. This stuff was primarily corn ... our dogs all lived fine and long lives, my last "pet" Sultan, a Samoyed, lived 16 or so which is amazingly long for the breed. My parents supplemented their foods with our meat by products ..

Always fun to lift the cover of an on the stove simmering pot, wondering what's for dinner, to find chicken feet in the mix ...

 

[Monique]

@bbinder , thanks for sucking down that bourbon and sharing your thoughts. Much appreciated. Your view that the big companies are fairly trustworthy is the same as my vet's and what I've heard from others, now that I've started inquiring. My vet made clear that she is not saying anything about the quality of the more boutique brands - just that she has positive experience with Purina and Hill's. And as you said, prescription diets are a different matter altogether.

I understand your frustration with the proliferation of "exotic" meats making it more difficult to actually treat dogs with food tolerance issues. My friend's dog eventually got to the point where there was precisely one food she wouldn't immediately barf up; same with treats. You have to wonder how all of this plays in.

My dogs are athletes and work nearly every day. I don’t mess with trendy feel-good diets. They get what is proven to meet the needs of dogs paying the mortgage and equipment of their trainers/handlers. Dogs are animals and have different dietary needs than humans. Too many people want to humanize animals.

So, what do you feed them? (I understand that working/athlete dogs have different nutritional requirements than my dogs, who mostly exercise their vocal chords aside from periodic hikes.)

You read what you wanted to read. 15 min????? but ignored the part about weight.
I hear "Chicken of the Sea" is the perfect food for your dog. The cans are sized just right for controlling the over eater.

I read it, but you know, dogs are different. I have plenty of proof that Cooper would eat himself into a grave. Loki is a different beast, as was my childhood dog. I guess I was objecting to the "see if their weight changes" part, because it was so funny to me (wrt Cooper). I apologize for being so ... absolute in my response.

I gather puppies are a different story. I started out feeding Loki, at five months, the same per body weight as an adult dog. Fortunately, I asked the vet about it right away, and she set me straight. Feed that puppy as much as he'll eat! Maybe that's how my ostensibly five month old puppy grew from a predicted 35 pounds to a healthy 60 ... (I think they were just wrong about his age, though.)

Pretty sure cans of tuna are the opposite of a well-balanced diet - you were probably joking? It definitely lacks taurine, which is one of the suspected issues with these foods.

I've been irritated with the increasing difficulty of NOT getting "grain free" when I've arrived to shelves missing our normal chicken and rice. We give the dogs vegetables of some kind as snacks most evenings, and occasionally it's been green beans.

Yeah, I was also annoyed at the difficulty finding ... grainful? ... dog foods, but I also didn't see the harm. Now I wonder. I read an article somewhere about how we've made grains - carbs in general - the enemy and are all latching onto protein. I tried the "slow carb" diet once for myself, and while I did lose weight, my gut couldn't handle it. I need some of my diet to be easily digestible - I don't know if that would be true for people who don't have GI conditions already.

Hmm. I hadn't thought about green beans being legumes. Years ago, I knew an overweight dog who was fed A LOT of green beans daily to help her feel full on her smaller portions.

One of the red flags in the article for me though was the reference to the diet in the wild of the dog's cousin the wolf and how its prey eats grain. Huh?? Deer. moose, elk. etc eat grass and and needles off trees. Rice, wheat, oats are not available in the wild. And besides don't wolves mostly feed on small rodents?

Hadn't thought of that. Good point - wolves surely do take down deer etc, but I doubt it's frequent. But also, wolves don't live very long.

I looked over that list of food and decided as well that there wasn't enough data to really cause a change in feeding my dog. I'm not willing to attempt to make my dog eat a different food just because it's on that list, my dog won't eat other foods even if he is starving.

Makes sense to me. I'd already been pondering changing food for a while, for other reasons, so this was just the final factor. My dogs started getting Orijen when I had a lot more disposable income and was eating all sorts of stuff that was much more expensive, for dubious but possible benefit. I've cut down my own spending at the grocery store and seem fine for it. Orijen was also bought by Champion, so it's not like they're the indy brand they used to be, anyway. I'm now mixing in some Wellness that does have grain (but boasts boneless chicken, and as per @bbinder and others' comments, that's not necessarily a good thing) and have Purina Pro Plan on the way. If the dogs seem to have more coat issues or other health issues, I'll go back to what was working - but if not, then like me, they can start eating more frugally.

We fed my childhood dog, Puma, Kibbles n Bits, with maybe five different pieces. But he didn't care for half of them, so he'd take a mouthful and then spit the pieces he didn't like out in a several foot circle around the bowl. It was hilarious. He lived to 12, but with some bad arthritis (I assume). At the time, I was under the impression that arthritis was untreatable - for both humans and dogs. I don't know where typical vet approaches were at the time, but the vet certainly never suggested palliative treatments. His final years also coincided with my graduation and my parents' move - he went from a nice big yard to an apartment, with an owner who did a piss-poor job of taking him out for anything but the minimum necessary walks.

Most of the advertising, discussion/promotion of ingredients, promotion of benefits of certain benefits, etc. is aimed at marketing to people.

Most of? ;-)

My take home point is to look for the AAFCO label, and don't stress too much.

Thank you! I just want to register that I *did* see this.

Home cooking a balanced recipe can work, but studies show that most people become lazy about preparation and ultimately feed an imbalanced diet (I had a patient that was fed on table scraps for years except had no thought to balanced nutrition. At age 12, the dog sneezed and bounced her jaw on the floor causing her mandible to shatter - the xrays showed that her bones were as thin as a piece of paper.)

Oh, god! Yikes. This has always been my fear with home prep stuff. Of course, this is my fear in general, for dogs and humans - we can live for a long time without obvious negatives on questionable food. Historically, I've used price as an unreliable but somewhat decent corollary to quality. And of course, table scraps don't constitute the entirety of our own meals, and pets are living longer and longer.

My dogs get kibble - I don't love feeding processed food when I myself don't do it, but at least I know the nutrients are there. They get some supplemental veggies when I'm prepping salads, and occasionally a few bites of the meats we prepare. Cooper takes his label of omnivore seriously - there's little he won't eat. They get cucumbers and red bell peppers galore. Cooper adores mango, and banana is his absolute favorite food. He'll eat tomato. Lately, they've liked clementines (??!!). When he was a young dog, Cooper begged while I was prepping kale. I thought I'd teach him a lesson by handing him the stems - but he eagerly downed them all, one by one. He's pickier these days.

We're getting half a cow (I guess actually steer) in August, and I'm excited to be able to feed the dogs beef heart and some of the other "offal." Also excited to be able to choose a ranch with practices that make me feel less morally culpable, and to eat steak as often as I want (this could be a problem).

Some people want to make their cats vegetarians..

THAT is, from what I can tell, animal abuse. "Obligate carnivores" as I understand it. I had a vet who swore that many of her feline patients with diabetes didn't even need insulin if they stopped eating grainy kibble. That being said, my cat actually wouldn't eat gooshy food. Go figure.

I agree that dogs will do fine on most anything.

I think the happiest dogs are those who get to spend the most time with their owners and who have a job to do - regardless of the quality of their food. There is some self selection, obviously - unhealthy dogs will get a lot less healthy without expensive care. But I wonder if the dogs you see with homeless people are probably thrilled to spend all day with their person, and ski patrol dogs must have the best life a dog could ever ask for. And in any case, I think it's true that dogs don't project into the future or dwell in the past - they never get mad at me for not walking them; they're excited when they get to go on a walk. I feel awful when I haven't been able to take them on a hike in a while, but they're just thrilled to be sniffing things. On the other side of things, I think extreme life saving measures are probably just cruel, as the dog can't understand "if you go through this, you might feel better again on the other side."

 

[Monique]

Oh, hey, on a lighter note - have you guys seen this? There are 10 parts. They just get funnier as you go along.

 

[Tricia]

...you know, dogs are different.

And sometimes the same dog becomes different.
In Ziggy's case, he was a grazer. We could put food in his dish and he'd eat a little at a time, throughout the day, After he was hospitalized when he got into a pan of brownies he had a different appetite and he got to a point where he'd eat the food you'd put in his dish almost immediately.

There was a point in time when Ziggy seemed to have dry skin so we put an egg on his food for a while. Any thoughts on that?

 

[Monique]

There was a point in time when Ziggy seemed to have dry skin so we put an egg on his food for a while. Any thoughts on that?

We did this for Puma, too. Would also like to know. (can't hurt, right?)

 

[Tricia]

We did this for Puma, too. Would also like to know. (can't hurt, right?)

After he was diagnosed with pancreatitis eggs were a big no because of the fat content, but while he was healthy, it did seem(emphasis on seem) to help his dry skin.

 

[Varmintmist]

purina dog chow with some people food mixed in if I have it. She supplements with toilet water, live/dead animals, feces, wood, plastic, bugs, grass and weeds.
Edit because I forgot tennis ball fuzz, and what is left after the squeakectomy

 

[VickieH]

Kibbles n Bits, with maybe five different pieces. But he didn't care for half of them, so he'd take a mouthful and then spit the pieces he didn't like out in a several foot circle around the bowl. It was hilarious

Truly hilarious. My 2nd dog, a beagle-dachsund mix, did the same thing. There was one component of the mix that decorated the floor around her bowl after every meal. Switched brands after one small bag.

 

[crgildart]

I like the short answer. Give then whatever makes them happy and excited but doesn't make them sick or give them the squirts.. Any good chew treats, rawhide, bone products that don't give dogs horrible gas?? Serious question..

 

[DanoT]

Pro Tip: Read the label on your dog's food bag or can.

Ok, I am not a pro but I did read the label on the Acana dog food that was listed at #1 on the list in the grain free dog food that leads to heart disease problems article:

Acana Wild Prairie is indeed grain free.

Acana Prairie Poultry: first and second ingredients listed are "Chicken meal 25%; Steel-cut oats 23%". This is my current bag so my dog Tia is good to go. She is a fussy eater so she also usually gets Zuke's treats mixed in with the kibble to stimulate her appetite. First 4 ingredients for Zuke's Chicken Recipe: Chicken, ground rice, ground barley, malted barley.

 

[Andy Mink]

rawhide

That is one thing my dogs don't get. It doesn't digest, at least not well, and causes excessive stink. My old girl can gnaw on a cow bone for weeks; she was never a crusher. She chews up sticks but doesn't swallow them. Vet says her teeth and overall health are great. Only issue is old joints and a very slow hearing loss.

 

[Monique]

I like the short answer. Give then whatever makes them happy and excited but doesn't make them sick or give them the squirts.. Any good chew treats, rawhide, bone products that don't give dogs horrible gas?? Serious question..

That is one thing my dogs don't get. It doesn't digest, at least not well, and causes excessive stink. My old girl can gnaw on a cow bone for weeks; she was never a crusher. She chews up sticks but doesn't swallow them. Vet says her teeth and overall health are great. Only issue is old joints and a very slow hearing loss.

I talked to my vet about this. Basically, rawhide can lump/swell in their GI system and require surgery. Bones can crack their teeth and require extraction. Choose your poison. I chose bones. Loki did crack a tooth and Cooper had a canine tooth die - both required extraction. They haven't had bones in a while, but that's because Loki is an asshole. He would steal Cooper's bones, and Cooper would just let him. It irritated me too much. I need to find a way to keep them separate while working on bones ... we'll have lots with the coming half a cow (can you tell I'm excited?).

Cooper is an excellent mulcher.

 

[crgildart]

My dog's a pitt bull and can totally destroy any pet store bone or chew toy in less than 5 minutes. The ""Unbreakoball" is the only thing she hasn't totally wrecked immediately. As for the rawhide stuff. We only give her something like that two or three times a year.. usually during the holidays when we have guests with small children. We put her out back in the deck with a big chew bone to divert her attention and calm her down. Usually after that 5 minutes we can let her back in and she's chill, not pestering the little kids or other guests. But, man later that night or the next day PEWWWW!! I'm more worried about her gobbling down bone splinters than the rawhide digestive issues, but ya no real good solution found yet other than to not give her stuff like that very often.