Does the plate make the ski?

[Philpug]

You guys are telling him to man up, buy a Lamborghini that drags every time he goes over a speed bump with a ride so rough his kidneys feel beat up by the time he’s only a quarter way of the way to the office. He’s telling you he wants a bmw 5 series and you are trying to sell him a track car.

Mike

Not at all, we are not telling him to man up. He is the one who says he wants a race ski but the race ski beats him up. Yes, he wants a 5-series....that is not a GS Ski w/o a plate.

 

[Tony Storaro]

OK, the one thing I could not understand is why would you need to be on plated GS ski the whole day?

Cant you just have two pairs of ski in the car-start on the GS in the morning, do 5-6 runs, thrash your Strava records and then slip into something comfy for the rest of the day?

Following the car analogies above-have 2 cars in the parking lot-a GT3rs for the morning and a M240i for the afternoon, what could possibly go wrong?

That'f be my approach for the next season-Laser GS in the morning and then AX the rest of the day.

 

[Cheizz]

Interesting discussion so far. First off - forget about me per se. Maybe I wasn't clear in my early posts, but this was a 'what if' question for the future. In the picture I made below, there are two scenarios. Which would you consider to be more accurate?

@Tony Storaro most days I ski in the major European resorts, so I don't get back to the car untill the end of the skiing day...

 

[Tony Storaro]

@Tony Storaro most days I ski in the major European resorts, so I don't get back to the car untill the end of the skiing day...

Ermm.....me too mate, and I cannot recall a single case in which my car was not parked near a base lift station (one of the reasons I prefer to drive around Europe rather than fly), but of course-you know best what works for you.
Just remember-skiing is supposed to be an enjoyable outdoors activity, do not torture yourself

 

[François Pugh]

It sounds to me like what you want is a GS ski without a plate, but from a company that fills the stiffer end of the spectrum. Fischer and Nordica come to mind, but I'm out of touch lately, so someone else will provide better advice as to which ones to look into.

 

[Dakine]

The Dynastars and Volkls ski very differently.
In my experience the Volkls are biased towards having a strong tip that will pull you into turns while the Dynastars (Rossi) have a weaker tip but a tail that spanks.
It is not just about overall stiffness, it is also about the balance of stiffness and torsional rigidity between the tip and tail.
At least that is my experience.

 

[Vicmoto]

Interesting discussion so far. First off - forget about me per se. Maybe I wasn't clear in my early posts, but this was a 'what if' question for the future. In the picture I made below, there are two scenarios. Which would you consider to be more accurate?
View attachment 98898

@Tony Storaro most days I ski in the major European resorts, so I don't get back to the car until the end of the skiing day...

Did you manage to get what you were looking for?
I'm in the same place as you were almost a year ago.
Doing some beer league races (with not much distance between gates) and 52 years on my legs I'm looking for trading off my standard-non-plated Atomic G9 177cm for the Rossi Hero Master/Dynastar Speed GS. I find that the 179cm/R19 would fit perfectly. The doubt is: plate/no plate
I want to be able to push when required (sometimes on ice wearing the bib #200 or higher). But from time to time I would like to have the possibility to relax for a while without the risk of being thrown off the horse and trampled if I'm not 100% into the skis.
I've had already the experience of dealing with the R22 plate in my Rossi SL FIS. A bit harsh for me but in the end I moved the bindings a bit forward and it's fine. I promised to my skis not to go to the backseat ever and they promised me not to skyrocket me to the moon if I behave. So far so good.
Any advice? Did you get the plated or the non-plated GS?

 

[James]

Get a lifter for toe and heel and not a full plate. That way you prevent boot out which is dangerous.

 

[Cheizz]

Did you manage to get what you were looking for?
I'm in the same place as you were almost a year ago.
Doing some beer league races (with not much distance between gates) and 52 years on my legs I'm looking for trading off my standard-non-plated Atomic G9 177cm for the Rossi Hero Master/Dynastar Speed GS. I find that the 179cm/R19 would fit perfectly. The doubt is: plate/no plate
I want to be able to push when required (sometimes on ice wearing the bib #200 or higher). But from time to time I would like to have the possibility to relax for a while without the risk of being thrown off the horse and trampled if I'm not 100% into the skis.
I've had already the experience of dealing with the R22 plate in my Rossi SL FIS. A bit harsh for me but in the end I moved the bindings a bit forward and it's fine. I promised to my skis not to go to the backseat ever and they promised me not to skyrocket me to the moon if I behave. So far so good.
Any advice? Did you get the plated or the non-plated GS?

In the end, I opted for the Fischer Curv GT because I could get a crazy good deal on them. The have no plate but are (for a non-plated ski) fairly heavy in construction with two sheets of 0.8 mm titanal. I don't race with them (I don't race, period), so I don't need the energy or acceleration. Or the radius, for that matter (the Curv GT has a 17 m radius at the length that I have, 182). So I am happy.

 

[markojp]

But it is. A cheater at least. I was just curious if one could say that a Master ski without a plate lies between a plated one and a regular cheater GS.

A cheater without a plate, you're cheating the ski design and yourself. I'm really puzzled by your issue of blowing up on a plated ski vs. non. I honestly can't think of why this should happen unless you're altering your fundamental mechanics anticipating that a plated race'ish ski needs more 'umpff' to make it work.... the 'umpff' is just plain old hard and not particularly efficient or effective.

 

[markojp]

Did you manage to get what you were looking for?
I'm in the same place as you were almost a year ago.
Doing some beer league races (with not much distance between gates) and 52 years on my legs I'm looking for trading off my standard-non-plated Atomic G9 177cm for the Rossi Hero Master/Dynastar Speed GS. I find that the 179cm/R19 would fit perfectly. The doubt is: plate/no plate
I want to be able to push when required (sometimes on ice wearing the bib #200 or higher). But from time to time I would like to have the possibility to relax for a while without the risk of being thrown off the horse and trampled if I'm not 100% into the skis.
I've had already the experience of dealing with the R22 plate in my Rossi SL FIS. A bit harsh for me but in the end I moved the bindings a bit forward and it's fine. I promised to my skis not to go to the backseat ever and they promised me not to skyrocket me to the moon if I behave. So far so good.
Any advice? Did you get the plated or the non-plated GS?

Plate. No question.

 

[Cheizz]

A cheater without a plate, you're cheating the ski design and yourself. I'm really puzzled by your issue of blowing up on a plated ski vs. non. I honestly can't think of why this should happen unless you're altering your fundamental mechanics anticipating that a plated race'ish ski needs more 'umpff' to make it work.... the 'umpff' is just plain old hard and not particularly efficient or effective.

I guess I struggled/wrestled the skis. That was two or so seasons ago. A few months back, I skied the Fischer RC4 CT and had no issues. But is it so strange that some skiers struggle (literally) with skis that are too sturdy and direct to bend them with their limited technique? I think that's what happened to me in the described situation. Since then, I have had an epiphany in ski technique, of sorts. That helped.
In short - yes, I do think that skis can be too much for a skier.

 

[Dakine]

I believe that the softest skis you can work through a course without overpowering them will be the fastest.
Not that I'd know but this is what an Austrian Team member told me.

 

[oldschoolskier]

One thing I’ve noticed is none mention the impact of boot stiffness and its impact on the ski. Soft skis softer boots, stiff skis stiffer boots, yes it is a balancing act and there is more to the equation but it really comes down to a balanced energy transfer from skier to boot, boot to ski, ski to snow.

In terms of what is fastest, really comes down to one thing, what works for you.

 

[James]

I guess I struggled/wrestled the skis.

Could they slide sideways on ice or very firm snow? Like a side slip.
I’m just wondering if the issue is the tune. This is way more common then people realize.
I had a discussion with a racer’s dad in a shop last year. He was telling me about how his daughter switched skis and she couldn’t ski it. Like things were really bad. I forget the details, but maybe one was like 5cm longer and a different brand. This made no sense as skier error. You can’t be good on one ski then switch to nearly an identical one and can’t make it turn. It has to be the tune. I told him that, he replied well it was tuned in the shop we were standing in. Well, that means nothing.

I’ve only had 1 shop that was 100% reliable and he got out of the business. Everytime I had an issue from a shop with a tune I’d just drive 2 1/2 hrs one way and give it to him. I’d regret not doing that in the first place. Easier than dealing with the offenders and it’s done right. A couple of these skis were unskiable. (Though none have been as bad as one in Chamonix.)
Whole issue drives me crazy.

I had a brand new, yet ground before going out the door, “soft” fat ski that was an absolute nightmare to ski. Made 1 run. Had there been a woodchipper nearby I’d have taken the Pivots off and fed it in, then burned the chips. Just for spite, rather then retune. That’ll teach it.

Slalom skis came back similarly, but not as bad. So frustrating. Slalom skis wouldn’t get the woodchipper treatment no matter how bad.

 

[oldschoolskier]

One of the things about plates is they also add a little extra leverage on the ski, making them easier to flex, removing the plate at best will not change things and at worst only make a stiff ski be even harder to flex. This is why FIS has rules about overall height of ski, plate, binding, boot, sole of foot interface, too much height to big of an advantage.

The second is clearance when leaned in edging to reduce booting out on the snow (think of hitting a peddle that’s down when you lean into a corner on a bicycle).

Besides which a good plate keeps the binding function release/retention stable (via consistent foreward pressure) without impact on the ski flexing.

So now you have the best of both worlds, no boot binding problems and influence along with slight advantage in flexing the ski.

 

[James]

This is why FIS has rules about overall height of ski, plate, binding, boot, sole of foot interface, too much height to big of an advantage.

It’s really a safety thing. Leverage one way means there’s leverage from the ground force too into the body. Double edged sword and it’s easy to cut yourself.

But you’re right in that the limit precludes a stack height escalation scenario.