Do your midlayers dry faster than your base layers?

[TheArchitect]

I would say Craft has some very high performance base layers, so I don’t think you will get much improvement there. You also have highly breathable insulators and shell fabrics.

I can see 4 possible improvements, listed in order of ease/cost and likelihood of improvement:

1. Everyone is different, but your system sounds super warm. Most days the base layer you have(which is extra warm) and insulated shell (which you have) would be enough or even to warm for me, even without all those extra other layers. Try wearing fewer layers/less insulation. Pack a spare layer in case you do get cold.
2. Make sure you adjust to the different requirements of skiing vs lift riding: I open pitzips and leg zips and pull down my hood before skiing down, then zip it all up again on the lift. If you’re wearing a midlayer, pushing up the sleeves of that works well too.
3. Try changing your baselayer for a wool one. This won’’t help with drying time as such, but it will help buffer moisture swings a bit more and feel less clammy when damp. Make sure to go with a thin fabric. Unless you know you won’t be sweating, stick to wool below 200g/m2 . I have been very happy with my new Icebreaker 150 bodyfit Zone. It’s very thin and low Lycra(so quick drying), has a great slim fit, with very long sleeves(size down) and merino eyelet mesh back panel.
4. Perhaps the culprit is the UA “waffle shirt”. Do you mean a grid fleece, in the style of Patagonia R1? If so, you could try somehting more breathable. This could be by substituting your heavyweight baselayer and fleece for a lightweight baselayer and the Nano-Air. Or by getting a different midlayer, similar in insulation to the UA shirt, but with better breathability. Nano-air-Light-Hybrid, RAB Alpha direct, OR Deviator come to mind.

Interesting thoughts. I've wondered if the UA layer might be contributing to the issue. It's not the grid fleece like the R1; just a waffle pattern loose UA shirt. Maybe I'll not wear that next time out and see what happens. Smartwool is on the list of options but as Analisa points out, it might not be the best one for me.

 

[Slim]

I bought & returned the nano air light hybrid vest. I found I needed a tad more warmth than it could provide. I’m back in a nano air vest now.

I had said vest because i thought it was in place of a 200g/m2 shirt. I have the jacket and would consider it warmer than a 200/m2 shirt. But if you want warmer, than the jacket or regular Nano air

 

[Kindbuzz]

On a related topic I need a new slightly warmer midlayer. My go to piece over the past three years is a no longer made Patagonia stretch polarfleece-down hybird. It is the most comfortable and well engineered midlayer ever. Its low profile in all the right places, super comfortable all around, has a perfect higher collar; stretches great. And the ultimate compliment, you forget you are wearing it. The only issue is its just not that warm. (maybe thats why they stopped making it)

Has anyone had any experience with some of the low profile and allegedly warm, polartec alpha mid layers? The strafe alpha mid looks great ....but pricey. Maybe a nano air?

 

[Analisa]

Has anyone had any experience with some of the low profile and allegedly warm, polartec alpha mid layers? The strafe alpha mid looks great ....but pricey. Maybe a nano air?

The Patagonia Hybrid was a really weird concept. Down can't loft and insulate when wet & sweaty, but the garment's not insulated enough to compete with a puffy, and the Polartec in the rest of the garment is designed for opposite reasons - great for when you're cold & active. The insulation's mapped in a little oddly. There are lots of midlayer options on the market that'll serve you better.

I've only looked at Alpha in the the Ascendant hoody that I got for my boyfriend & it's impressively effective for its weight. It also breathes really well, so it's a great option for skiing hard with big temperature swings. If you're looking for something super warm for low intensity skiing, it might leave a lot to be desired. It also does a pretty good job of letting vapors escape once they've traveled through your base layers.

It's pricey, but the R&D is pretty advanced. The team at Polartec always touts how it's engineered for special forces where there's a lot of stop-start in combat and few opportunities to say "can you hold for a sec while I de-layer?" When you look at other brands using the same tech (OR Ascendant & Deviator, Dynafit Mezzaluna, Rab Alpha Direct, etc.) the pricing is really in-line and the only big differences are explained by the differences in gsm, whether the garments insulated all over or just in key areas, and whether the face is nylon or polyester.

 

[Decreed_It]

Are you really happy with your base layers? Ever feel a little mucky or a little chilled or like you're sweating more than you should?

yes. nope. well, hardly ever - if I'm really getting after it - hiking or I went one too many layers for the temp (getting better at that).

Smartwool, always and only as the base for me. I think I have 150 and 250. Then an old solstice brand light weight polar tech micro fleece half zip. Maybe. From there a micro puff if it's really cold (also a smartwool skullcap under the helmet). Never had an issue with this setup.

 

[Kindbuzz]

The Patagonia Hybrid was a really weird concept. Down can't loft and insulate when wet & sweaty, but the garment's not insulated enough to compete with a puffy, and the Polartec in the rest of the garment is designed for opposite reasons - great for when you're cold & active. The insulation's mapped in a little oddly. There are lots of midlayer options on the market that'll serve you better.

I've only looked at Alpha in the the Ascendant hoody that I got for my boyfriend & it's impressively effective for its weight. It also breathes really well, so it's a great option for skiing hard with big temperature swings. If you're looking for something super warm for low intensity skiing, it might leave a lot to be desired. It also does a pretty good job of letting vapors escape once they've traveled through your base layers.

It's pricey, but the R&D is pretty advanced. The team at Polartec always touts how it's engineered for special forces where there's a lot of stop-start in combat and few opportunities to say "can you hold for a sec while I de-layer?" When you look at other brands using the same tech (OR Ascendant & Deviator, Dynafit Mezzaluna, Rab Alpha Direct, etc.) the pricing is really in-line and the only big differences are explained by the differences in gsm, whether the garments insulated all over or just in key areas, and whether the face is nylon or polyester.

Analisa

Thanks for the reply. I will check out the OR ascendant. I have a couple of older OR pieces, gloves and a wool/poly hybrid pull over that are great quality and ve3ry good design, although the fit on other OR products has been boxy for me. Ive done a little research and compiled a quick list of possible candidates. I don’t need any wind resistance, just low profile, warmth and breathability.


Patagonia Nano-Air

Arcteryx Atom

Strafe Alpha Mid- https://www.strafeouterwear.com/product/alpha-direct-insulator/


And a complete out of left field wild card, the Kora yak/merino hybrid jackt. Pricy as Q@#$#$%, but looks very interesting, if the collar is not as large in real life as depicted in the pic

https://www.kora.net/usa/azog-hooded-jacket.html


any other suggestions appreciated.

 

[Ron]

I've been a long-time advocate of Alpha and now Gold. For colder temps and being active, in my book, there's no better layering. I am still a hard-core nano air fanatic and use a 150 to 250 wool base depending on temps for warmer days (15* and up). the nano light is a good piece if you understand its purpose.

 

[Analisa]

@Kindbuzz - in terms of your options:

Strafe Alpha Direct - I'd get more clarity on the garment from Strafe. They don't share any components other than Polartec Alpha & Recon Air on their own site. Their press release on Recon Air says that it's waterproof and Peter Glenn's site says to 20,000mm hydrostatic pressure (basically a high quality shell), but there's no mention of membrane construction. The Moosejaw site says it has 4 way stretch, but that the fabric is 100% nylon (2-way stretch is possible with loose knits that have mechanical stretch, but 4 way requires spandex). Their product data's weird & inconsistent, so it's really hard to tell what it'll wear like. Their customer service team could probably help you out.

OR Ascendant - 95 gsm of insulation vs. 90 in the Strafe, so likely a touch warmer. Face fabric is nice. Pertex is a coated nylon that's really water resistant, wind resistant, and incredibly durable. The concern to me would be the warmth. Were you always cold in the Patagonia Hybrid or did it get damp & cold as the day went on? Or did it & your shell not cut enough wind? The Hybrid was a little over a pound vs. the Ascendant at 11 ounces. The insulation and wind/water resistance of the Ascendant make it pack a lot of punch with the 11 ounces it carries whereas the hybrid's insulation is not the most efficient, but if you're looking for something that's warmer at rest, I'm not sure this is it.

Patagonia Nano-Air - FullRange insulation is pretty similar to Alpha where it's a sheet, not stuffing. It's stretchy, whereas the Ascent is not. It's a little heavier than the Ascendant (the Nano Air Light would be the "peer" to the Ascendant). Face fabric is a 30D nylon ripstop, so between the Pertex in the Ascendant and the extra denier in the Nano-Air, they're probably equally durable-ish. Less water & wind resistant, so warmth between the two depends on the conditions, but if you're wearing it under a good shell, the Nano Air would probably run a little warmer. A few friends that have the Nano Air Light mentioned wind cuts right through.

Arcteryx Atom - similar to the Nano-Air, but more wind & water resistance/less breathe. This is the warmest on your list.

Skip the wool. It's a great fabric as a base layer for big temp swings, but the fact that it holds moisture/wicks are qualities you don't want/don't need to pay for in a mid layer. It also doesn't loft nearly as well as synthetic fibers. It'd be a decent choice if you were trying to avoid petroleum based products, but otherwise you can skip it.

I'd add the Rab Alpha Direct if you can stand the hood (like a warmer version of the Ascendant with 130gsm and a stronger Pertex outer face).

 

[Mike Thomas]

I've been amazed by the Norrona Alpha 90 raw 'jacket' as a mid layer. It's like wearing warm air.

 

[Tom K.]

Craft Active Extreme is amazing base layer clothing.

Buy it tight, for best performance during high output activities.

 

[Ron]

Rab all day every day. Its a phenomenal piece, I dont know if they changed the hood, but mine has a clasp allowing me to roll it up creating a nice neck roll that bocks wind and cold on honking' days

 

[cantunamunch]

I'm still a Six2 guy - warmer than Craft and dries faster especially in compression fits. It is so much faster drying than Nike Drifit, than REI store brand, than open air (the guys that make mountain branded gear) that it inspired this thread. Even among the bike layers it is faster than Giordana and Castelli.

 

[martyg]

I'm all about merino for baselayer. I recently got away from fleece as a mid-layer. Synthetic puffies compress more, weigh less than any of my fleeces, and often have a wider range of temp applications. Important if weight and space are issues.

 

[Kindbuzz]

@Kindbuzz - in terms of your options:

Strafe Alpha Direct - I'd get more clarity on the garment from Strafe. They don't share any components other than Polartec Alpha & Recon Air on their own site. Their press release on Recon Air says that it's waterproof and Peter Glenn's site says to 20,000mm hydrostatic pressure (basically a high quality shell), but there's no mention of membrane construction. The Moosejaw site says it has 4 way stretch, but that the fabric is 100% nylon (2-way stretch is possible with loose knits that have mechanical stretch, but 4 way requires spandex). Their product data's weird & inconsistent, so it's really hard to tell what it'll wear like. Their customer service team could probably help you out.

OR Ascendant - 95 gsm of insulation vs. 90 in the Strafe, so likely a touch warmer. Face fabric is nice. Pertex is a coated nylon that's really water resistant, wind resistant, and incredibly durable. The concern to me would be the warmth. Were you always cold in the Patagonia Hybrid or did it get damp & cold as the day went on? Or did it & your shell not cut enough wind? The Hybrid was a little over a pound vs. the Ascendant at 11 ounces. The insulation and wind/water resistance of the Ascendant make it pack a lot of punch with the 11 ounces it carries whereas the hybrid's insulation is not the most efficient, but if you're looking for something that's warmer at rest, I'm not sure this is it.

Patagonia Nano-Air - FullRange insulation is pretty similar to Alpha where it's a sheet, not stuffing. It's stretchy, whereas the Ascent is not. It's a little heavier than the Ascendant (the Nano Air Light would be the "peer" to the Ascendant). Face fabric is a 30D nylon ripstop, so between the Pertex in the Ascendant and the extra denier in the Nano-Air, they're probably equally durable-ish. Less water & wind resistant, so warmth between the two depends on the conditions, but if you're wearing it under a good shell, the Nano Air would probably run a little warmer. A few friends that have the Nano Air Light mentioned wind cuts right through.

Arcteryx Atom - similar to the Nano-Air, but more wind & water resistance/less breathe. This is the warmest on your list.

Skip the wool. It's a great fabric as a base layer for big temp swings, but the fact that it holds moisture/wicks are qualities you don't want/don't need to pay for in a mid layer. It also doesn't loft nearly as well as synthetic fibers. It'd be a decent choice if you were trying to avoid petroleum based products, but otherwise you can skip it.

I'd add the Rab Alpha Direct if you can stand the hood (like a warmer version of the Ascendant with 130gsm and a stronger Pertex outer face).

I want to thank you for the incredible comprehensive post! Truly appreicatethe info and advice.

 

[Dos-Equis]

It depends. Polyester tends to wick better than wool, and tends to be faster drying. But wool still insulates when wet, breathes better, and the fact that wool carries some moisture in the core of its fiber, it releases moisture when it's hot and does a better job regulating big temperature swings.

Between each fiber type, there's still a lot of variety in terms of performance based on the weight of the garment, the knit pattern, and topical treatments. There's nothing in customer-facing data to tell you the difference in technology & performance between a $7.99 C9 base layer and an $89 Arcteryx Phase base layer if they're both 100% polyester. The only for sure rule of thumb is that thinner is better. It's easier to get moisture pulled to the surface of a lightweight base layer than an a heavyweight one. Let your insulation layers do the insulating. Unless they're doing double duty for running/climbing/skimo where bulk is an issue, there's no need to add more complexity to your garment.

Beyond that, read reviews, but carefully. Even Outdoor Gear Lab gives a lot of points for warmth (granted, they're looking at the garment through the lens of all outdoor sports, not just skiing specifically) and they talk about whether you can layer pieces under the garments (base layers: you're doing it wrong), but if you really key into the ones that are marketed for high output activities, you should find some good options that keep you dry instead of trying to keep you warm. This is also an area where you can let MSRP guide some options - licensed textile tech like Polartec's fabrics or NanoRed isn't cheap, but the performance is a lot better than the stock polyester that goes into a lot of activewear. In terms of what to try next, NWAlpine's Black Spider base layers are primo for wicking & drying (but the price tag is too). Patagonia Lightweight Capilene has a really solid reputation. Rab's Merino blend options perform well, and I've heard some decent things about the Interval for a synthetic option. Smartwool's 250 weight is the gold standard for merino baselayers, but if you know you tend to run sweaty, the silkweight options will serve you better.

What do you think about the Helly Hansen Lifa Merino, or equivalent? They put the Lifa synthetic as the first layer bonded with an outer layer of merino. The premise is the synthetic wicks moisture and the merino pulls it further away to evaporate while insulating.

Something to the bonded layer approach or is it just hype?

 

[Brian Finch]

I’m in need of a new system..... Have been using lightweight Capiline under Patagonia Fleece, then a puffy & finally Spyder Coach bibs & a down jacket...... standing around with kids & coaching.

Now I find myself with the opportunity to ski solo

Thinking
•Merino 250 Baselayer
•AirBlasters Union Suit
•’Down in front’ midlayer
•Goretex-Pro hardshell outerlayers (non insulated)

thoughts?

 

[cantunamunch]

I’m in need of a new system.....
...
thoughts?

This forum totally needs a new Cold Junk thread.

 

[Ken_R]

@Kindbuzz - in terms of your options:

OR Ascendant - 95 gsm of insulation vs. 90 in the Strafe, so likely a touch warmer. Face fabric is nice. Pertex is a coated nylon that's really water resistant, wind resistant, and incredibly durable. The concern to me would be the warmth. Were you always cold in the Patagonia Hybrid or did it get damp & cold as the day went on? Or did it & your shell not cut enough wind? The Hybrid was a little over a pound vs. the Ascendant at 11 ounces. The insulation and wind/water resistance of the Ascendant make it pack a lot of punch with the 11 ounces it carries whereas the hybrid's insulation is not the most efficient, but if you're looking for something that's warmer at rest, I'm not sure this is it.

This is my favorite mid-layer EVER. I even use it as an outer layer in the high alpine during the summer months. It just wicks moisture off my baselayers perfectly. Dries fast. Regulates body temperature extremely well. It just keeps me very comfortable in a wide range of temps and wind conditions. I think I will buy another one in case they stop making it. I will definitely wear mine until its shredded. The outer layer has been surprisingly tough even against rock. I did not expect that given that its pretty thin.

 

[Analisa]

@Dos-Equis - I picked up some LIFA Merino for my boyfriend last Christmas. It's not a bonded fabric, their knitting machines just put down polypropylene layers down inside and merino out. (Most other blends create staple fibers with a mix of wool & synthetic and twist them into yarns).

Manufacturers market wool-synthetic blends with this idea that both fibers tend to have opposite strengths (merino stays war when wet & is naturally odor resistant/synthetics hold less water and dry faster), and that combining the two means they cancel out each other's pitfalls. It's not quite the case. Blends are just more like all mountain skis vs. a piste ski & a powder one. They just split the difference - warmer than synthetics when wet but less so than wool. Dries faster than wool but slower than synthetics. Less stinky than polyester, more so than wool.

Polypropylene definitely sets LIFA merino apart, since most use polyester. Polypropylene wicks better and dries faster. But the biggest drawback is that it holds odors like mad. Plus it's got a pretty low melting point, so you have to be careful with the washer and dryer settings. I'd cold wash & line dry. And it doesn't provide the same UPF coverage & deteriorates in sunlight. It also doesn't have very good abrasion resistance. Not dealbreakers for a ski base layer, but I can see why more of the "all mountain/all season" brands go with something that works year-round with polyester.

And they do get points for a solid, close to 50/50 mix between wool & synthetics. Some brands add 10% wool and market them as straight up merino. Total pain.