Do your midlayers dry faster than your base layers?

[cantunamunch]

Are you really happy with your base layers? Ever feel a little mucky or a little chilled or like you're sweating more than you should?


Do an experiment. Wash your base and your midlayers as normal, then run them in the dryer on the lowest heat possible. Do a short dry cycle, say 45-50 minutes on super-low heat.

What is still wet?

I suspect it will be (some of) your base layers. I'm not talking about cotton here. I'm talking about mid-range name brand layers and mid-range store-brand layers. Specifically marketed to skiers for skiing.

Personally, I find it functionally dubious that any base layer should hold onto moisture longer than the midlayer it is meant to be layered with. I fully intend to weed out all the slow drying ones - look for them at a thrift nearby.

 

[Coach13]

My Under Armour base layers dry very quickly.

 

[cantunamunch]

My Under Armour base layers dry very quickly.

I've actually substituted pieces of my summer-grade UA as better than some, supposedly, winter grade ones.

 

[Coach13]

I've actually substituted pieces of my summer-grade UA as better than some, supposedly, winter grade ones.

I use mostly the UA heat gear which is generally warm enough for me. When it’s really cold I use the cold gear. Both last forever, work great and dry very quickly.

 

[Analisa]

Mid layers will generally dry faster since they don’t need any wicking properties. A polar fleece basically comes out of the dry as a bone, but it’d be a really chilly & clammy day on the mountain if you wore that layer next to skin. In lab testing, wicking & quick dry are different, and sometimes improvements in one will negatively affect the other. Throw in the fact that wool technically absorbs water, but is more breatheable, insulates when wet, and has more warmth for weight so that your wearing less clothing with less moisture absorption potential, it gets hard to compare two garments apples to apples. Even if manufacturers shared all of their testing data, some wicking capabilities are inherent to the knit & fiber structure. Some are enhanced based on topical treatments that last from 5 to 50 washes.

I’d probably put more weight on a day’s wear test at the resort than putting all the emphasis on dry time.

 

[Jersey Skier]

I was going to post a question similar about wool layers. I wear wool next to my skin most days with no problems. I wear a Nano air as a midlayer. My issue is on really cold resort days I add a merino 200 wt layer in between those two. Despite single digit temperatures I’ll still sweat, but that one layer stays wet. On milder days I use a MTB jersey that will remain dry despite all the sweating. Not sure what to try for the colder days.

 

[EricG]

At the advice of @Analisa i changed up my mid layers this year. I use smart wool 250 baselayer almost all the time, it just works good for me. Depending on the temps I use a Patagonia Nano Air or Patagonia Nano Air Hybrid under my shell. I’m really liking the nano air layer and decently happy with the nano air hybrid layer. These active super breathable mid layers have definitely kept me more comfortable this year.

 

[TheArchitect]

I've been contemplating making a change to my base and mid layers but I don't know what to switch to. I've been using a Craft base layer: https://www.rei.com/product/108466/craft-active-extreme-sport-zip-neck-shirt-mens with a loose UA synthetic waffle shirt over the top. Then, depending on the temp out I'll add a Patagonia Nano Air under my jacket (Strafe w/NeoShell and 60g of Alpha insulation). The problem is that I feel like the moisture isn't wicking away and is trapped in the baselayer. It can feel a bit clammy.

Would switching out the Craft for a Smartwool 150 merino baselayer be an upgrade to the polyester Craft or is the problem something else? I'm not sure there's an answer to that question and trial and error with base layers can get expensive.

 

[Analisa]

Would switching out the Craft for a Smartwool 150 merino baselayer be an upgrade to the polyester Craft or is the problem something else? I'm not sure there's an answer to that question and trial and error with base layers can get expensive.

It depends. Polyester tends to wick better than wool, and tends to be faster drying. But wool still insulates when wet, breathes better, and the fact that wool carries some moisture in the core of its fiber, it releases moisture when it's hot and does a better job regulating big temperature swings.

Between each fiber type, there's still a lot of variety in terms of performance based on the weight of the garment, the knit pattern, and topical treatments. There's nothing in customer-facing data to tell you the difference in technology & performance between a $7.99 C9 base layer and an $89 Arcteryx Phase base layer if they're both 100% polyester. The only for sure rule of thumb is that thinner is better. It's easier to get moisture pulled to the surface of a lightweight base layer than an a heavyweight one. Let your insulation layers do the insulating. Unless they're doing double duty for running/climbing/skimo where bulk is an issue, there's no need to add more complexity to your garment.

Beyond that, read reviews, but carefully. Even Outdoor Gear Lab gives a lot of points for warmth (granted, they're looking at the garment through the lens of all outdoor sports, not just skiing specifically) and they talk about whether you can layer pieces under the garments (base layers: you're doing it wrong), but if you really key into the ones that are marketed for high output activities, you should find some good options that keep you dry instead of trying to keep you warm. This is also an area where you can let MSRP guide some options - licensed textile tech like Polartec's fabrics or NanoRed isn't cheap, but the performance is a lot better than the stock polyester that goes into a lot of activewear. In terms of what to try next, NWAlpine's Black Spider base layers are primo for wicking & drying (but the price tag is too). Patagonia Lightweight Capilene has a really solid reputation. Rab's Merino blend options perform well, and I've heard some decent things about the Interval for a synthetic option. Smartwool's 250 weight is the gold standard for merino baselayers, but if you know you tend to run sweaty, the silkweight options will serve you better.

 

[crgildart]

If you're sweating through your base layer often, it doesn't make that much difference how fast it dries. Go with a lighter mid layer/shell or skip the base layer. Dress lighter or don't work so hard ;-)

 

[cantunamunch]

If you're sweating through your base layer often, it doesn't make that much difference how fast it dries. Go with a lighter mid layer/shell or skip the base layer. Dress lighter or don't work so hard ;-)

Sure it does - it makes all the difference. Drying is the only method the base layer has to get rid of moisture. Otherwise you're effectively wearing a schwitz tank.

And nobody reading this thread should make the assumption that base layers are somehow required to dry slower than midlayers. The dryer experiment proves that there are designs out there that dry faster , and plenty of designs that dry just as fast as, to pick an example, waffle-print fleece or Powerstretch fleece. More than half of my base layers dry faster than North Face's Ventrix system.

I think a lot of the slow-drying but comfortable skin feel products were designed for sedentary driving-in-the-car wearing.

 

[LuliTheYounger]

A dry fabric isn't necessarily a good thing, though. Quick dry fabrics exist to allow for unimpeded evaporative cooling; they're wicking sweat and body heat at the same time. That's great if it's unexpectedly warm, but if you're reaching for them more often than not, you're probably overbuilding your midlayer & then trying to mitigate the issue with a cooling effect below it.

 

[cantunamunch]

Quick dry fabrics exist to allow for unimpeded evaporative cooling; .

Unimpeded in this context meaning "rate-controlled by the garment above them" - yes. Unimpeded by the base layer itself, and tranferring water to the evap side fast enough so that there is no already-cooled liquid contact with skin.

And, in order for there to be no cool-liquid-to-skin contact, the liquid has to evaporate before it cools completely. Otherwise you're creating cold thermal mass with no air gap between it and skin.

There really is no way to get out of the evaporative requirement for base layers - unless we're creating wet suits. Warm and insulating when wet? Reduced evaporative cooling? That reads on an open-cell neoprene wetsuit, and it will be much much better at any of that than wool.

That's exactly the point of this thread - trying to get away from the wet suit feel.

 

[Lorenzzo]

It depends. Polyester tends to wick better than wool, and tends to be faster drying. But wool still insulates when wet, breathes better, and the fact that wool carries some moisture in the core of its fiber, it releases moisture when it's hot and does a better job regulating big temperature swings.

Between each fiber type, there's still a lot of variety in terms of performance based on the weight of the garment, the knit pattern, and topical treatments. There's nothing in customer-facing data to tell you the difference in technology & performance between a $7.99 C9 base layer and an $89 Arcteryx Phase base layer if they're both 100% polyester. The only for sure rule of thumb is that thinner is better. It's easier to get moisture pulled to the surface of a lightweight base layer than an a heavyweight one. Let your insulation layers do the insulating. Unless they're doing double duty for running/climbing/skimo where bulk is an issue, there's no need to add more complexity to your garment.

Beyond that, read reviews, but carefully. Even Outdoor Gear Lab gives a lot of points for warmth (granted, they're looking at the garment through the lens of all outdoor sports, not just skiing specifically) and they talk about whether you can layer pieces under the garments (base layers: you're doing it wrong), but if you really key into the ones that are marketed for high output activities, you should find some good options that keep you dry instead of trying to keep you warm. This is also an area where you can let MSRP guide some options - licensed textile tech like Polartec's fabrics or NanoRed isn't cheap, but the performance is a lot better than the stock polyester that goes into a lot of activewear. In terms of what to try next, NWAlpine's Black Spider base layers are primo for wicking & drying (but the price tag is too). Patagonia Lightweight Capilene has a really solid reputation. Rab's Merino blend options perform well, and I've heard some decent things about the Interval for a synthetic option. Smartwool's 250 weight is the gold standard for merino baselayers, but if you know you tend to run sweaty, the silkweight options will serve you better.

I've had really good success with Smartwool 150 so before the season found well priced SM 250 and stocked up tops and bottoms, being in a colder, wetter clime this winter. It was a mistake. The 150 wicks really well for me, I rarely feel sweaty. I don't typically perspire a lot when skiing unless doing big hikes. But the 250 is a different deal, it has a narrower comfort range before it holds perspiration. It isn't uncomfortable but I needn't have spent more money on something that doesn't work as well. Should have thought it through. But then now I can use it for lower exertion activities without feeing guilty.

I did purchase an expensive Arcteryx base layer (Rho LT) for really cold days, again not thinking through the base layer thickness dynamic, and that is now my favorite lower BL. As expensive as they are I'll be looking for some on sale this spring. Great BL for my level of exertion/perspiration. It's the only thing I've found that I like as much or better than merino.

 

[Jersey Skier]

That's the same problem I've had with different weights of merino too. Both Smartwool and Icebreaker. The thin ones next to the skin are no problem, but the heavier weight wools just hold moisture and I feel clammy.

 

[TheArchitect]

It depends. Polyester tends to wick better than wool, and tends to be faster drying. But wool still insulates when wet, breathes better, and the fact that wool carries some moisture in the core of its fiber, it releases moisture when it's hot and does a better job regulating big temperature swings.

Between each fiber type, there's still a lot of variety in terms of performance based on the weight of the garment, the knit pattern, and topical treatments. There's nothing in customer-facing data to tell you the difference in technology & performance between a $7.99 C9 base layer and an $89 Arcteryx Phase base layer if they're both 100% polyester. The only for sure rule of thumb is that thinner is better. It's easier to get moisture pulled to the surface of a lightweight base layer than an a heavyweight one. Let your insulation layers do the insulating. Unless they're doing double duty for running/climbing/skimo where bulk is an issue, there's no need to add more complexity to your garment.

Beyond that, read reviews, but carefully. Even Outdoor Gear Lab gives a lot of points for warmth (granted, they're looking at the garment through the lens of all outdoor sports, not just skiing specifically) and they talk about whether you can layer pieces under the garments (base layers: you're doing it wrong), but if you really key into the ones that are marketed for high output activities, you should find some good options that keep you dry instead of trying to keep you warm. This is also an area where you can let MSRP guide some options - licensed textile tech like Polartec's fabrics or NanoRed isn't cheap, but the performance is a lot better than the stock polyester that goes into a lot of activewear. In terms of what to try next, NWAlpine's Black Spider base layers are primo for wicking & drying (but the price tag is too). Patagonia Lightweight Capilene has a really solid reputation. Rab's Merino blend options perform well, and I've heard some decent things about the Interval for a synthetic option. Smartwool's 250 weight is the gold standard for merino baselayers, but if you know you tend to run sweaty, the silkweight options will serve you better.

Thanks for the reply. I'll look into those other options you mentioned and won't fixate on Smartwool. I absolutely run sweaty so lightweight is really my only option. I've never looked to have the base layer provide warmth because of that. I just want the sweat to move away and evaporate.

 

[LuliTheYounger]

Unimpeded in this context meaning "rate-controlled by the garment above them" - yes. Unimpeded by the base layer itself, and tranferring water to the evap side fast enough so that there is no already-cooled liquid contact with skin.

And, in order for there to be no cool-liquid-to-skin contact, the liquid has to evaporate before it cools completely. Otherwise you're creating cold thermal mass with no air gap between it and skin.

There really is no way to get out of the evaporative requirement for base layers - unless we're creating wet suits. Warm and insulating when wet? Reduced evaporative cooling? That reads on an open-cell neoprene wetsuit, and it will be much much better at any of that than wool.

That's exactly the point of this thread - trying to get away from the wet suit feel.

Right, but I'm not saying that evaporation shouldn't happen at all, I'm just saying that warmth and overall dryness aren't directly related. Two wet fabrics can have totally different thermal performance, and the actual skin feel can be completely different. Seeing a slower drying time from a wool or wool-mimicking fabric - where the liquid isn't against the skin and is mostly held in the core or an outer layer - isn't a sign of bad quality or poor design, it's just that that fabric design prioritizes slower heat loss vs. allowing a little bit of stickiness in some conditions. Those styles do 100% take a different style of midlayer management to keep them removing skin moisture without overpowering the fabric's capabilities, but IMO there's plenty of situations where that's a more appropriate solution than a quick-dry layer with more erratic thermal performance.

I'm also curious about the idea that moisture on the outside of the baselayer cools into "a cold thermal mass" - I wear UA Cold Gear an unreasonable number of days a year, and my experience has been that if it's under a midlayer, it stays pretty close to skin temperature? When I go bucket-bobbing at work, I usually strip to the UA to keep my midlayer dry, and then just put the midlayer back on over the soaked shirt; the inner brushing usually wicks dry in a couple minutes. The outer layer of the CG is sometimes still damp when I pull the jacket off at the end of the day, but I've never noticed it being particularly cold or iced over or anything. Honestly curious if other people have a different experience with CG or a similar heavyweight fabric; I might be doing something weird?

 

[Slim]

I've been contemplating making a change to my base and mid layers but I don't know what to switch to. I've been using a Craft base layer: https://www.rei.com/product/108466/craft-active-extreme-sport-zip-neck-shirt-mens with a loose UA synthetic waffle shirt over the top. Then, depending on the temp out I'll add a Patagonia Nano Air under my jacket (Strafe w/NeoShell and 60g of Alpha insulation). The problem is that I feel like the moisture isn't wicking away and is trapped in the baselayer. It can feel a bit clammy.

Would switching out the Craft for a Smartwool 150 merino baselayer be an upgrade to the polyester Craft or is the problem something else? I'm not sure there's an answer to that question and trial and error with base layers can get expensive.

I would say Craft has some very high performance base layers, so I don’t think you will get much improvement there. You also have highly breathable insulators and shell fabrics.

I can see 4 possible improvements, listed in order of ease/cost and likelihood of improvement:

1. Everyone is different, but your system sounds super warm. Most days the base layer you have(which is extra warm) and insulated shell (which you have) would be enough or even to warm for me, even without all those extra other layers. Try wearing fewer layers/less insulation. Pack a spare layer in case you do get cold.
2. Make sure you adjust to the different requirements of skiing vs lift riding: I open pitzips and leg zips and pull down my hood before skiing down, then zip it all up again on the lift. If you’re wearing a midlayer, pushing up the sleeves of that works well too.
3. Try changing your baselayer for a wool one. This won’’t help with drying time as such, but it will help buffer moisture swings a bit more and feel less clammy when damp. Make sure to go with a thin fabric. Unless you know you won’t be sweating, stick to wool below 200g/m2 . I have been very happy with my new Icebreaker 150 bodyfit Zone. It’s very thin and low Lycra(so quick drying), has a great slim fit, with very long sleeves(size down) and merino eyelet mesh back panel.
4. Perhaps the culprit is the UA “waffle shirt”. Do you mean a grid fleece, in the style of Patagonia R1? If so, you could try somehting more breathable. This could be by substituting your heavyweight baselayer and fleece for a lightweight baselayer and the Nano-Air. Or by getting a different midlayer, similar in insulation to the UA shirt, but with better breathability. Nano-air-Light-Hybrid, RAB Alpha direct, OR Deviator come to mind.

 

[Slim]

I was going to post a question similar about wool layers. I wear wool next to my skin most days with no problems. I wear a Nano air as a midlayer. My issue is on really cold resort days I add a merino 200 wt layer in between those two. Despite single digit temperatures I’ll still sweat, but that one layer stays wet. On milder days I use a MTB jersey that will remain dry despite all the sweating. Not sure what to try for the colder days.

Try the Nano Air Light Hybrid vest or other thin active insulator (vest) instead of the wool shirt, unless you know you can keep yourself from getting sweaty.

https://www.outdoorresearch.com/us/...sts/mens-deviator-hooded-vest/p/2539651285010

https://www.patagonia.com/product/m...s-vests#tile-6=&srule=price-low&sz=24&start=1

 

[EricG]

Try the Nano Air Light Hybrid vest or other thin active insulator (vest) instead of the wool shirt, unless you know you can keep yourself from getting sweaty.

https://www.outdoorresearch.com/us/...sts/mens-deviator-hooded-vest/p/2539651285010

https://www.patagonia.com/product/m...s-vests#tile-6=&srule=price-low&sz=24&start=1

I bought & returned the nano air light hybrid vest. I found I needed a tad more warmth than it could provide. I’m back in a nano air vest now.