Do you need actual teaching time for Level I Cert?

[Dwight]

@avgDude talk to your local hill now. They are recruiting new people now. If you have time to work anytime, they would be lucky. Generally most instructors in the Midwest are HS and college age kids, that will leave after a few years.

If your hill has a good ski school director, you probably will have a few good L2 and maybe one L3 instructor on staff too. They probably have a good new instructor training before the season starts. Then after you get some time instructing, the Level 1 evaluation will become easier. Our hill also had L1 training for those that wanted to take the evaluation.

@HDSkiing has the best advice. Always looking for good people skills. Instructors are the face of a Midwest hill. The first line of customer service. If they suck with people skills, you won't get that beginner back, ever.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

@avgDude talk to your local hill now. They are recruiting new people now. If you have time to work anytime, they would be lucky. Generally most instructors in the Midwest are HS and college age kids, that will leave after a few years.

If your hill has a good ski school director, you probably will have a few good L2 and maybe one L3 instructor on staff too. They probably have a good new instructor training before the season starts. Then after you get some time instructing, the Level 1 evaluation will become easier. Our hill also had L1 training for those that wanted to take the evaluation.

@HDSkiing has the best advice. Always looking for good people skills. Instructors are the face of a Midwest hill. The first line of customer service. If they suck with people skills, you won't get that beginner back, ever.

I had a couple of L3 folks that mentored me at the first mountain I taught and I learned so much from them. They mentored me for a couple of years before I took the exam. This was key to me. As far as the personality goes my ski school director told me when I first started that we can teach you to ski but we can't teach you a personality so that is the most critical thing.

 

[Magi]

@Magi, your description of how to get the new outside ski to diverge at initiation is an interesting one. I think you are saying to tip it onto its big toe edge and maybe to "weight" it (perhaps by extending its leg to press the ski's edge downward onto the snow?). With extra pressure and extra edging, it will turn faster than the new inside ski and voila, you've got that wedge. Have I got that right? Or maybe you only mean extra edging does the trick.
...
All this is to say that the wedge christie is a "trick question" on the LII exam designed to separate the sheep from the goats. Instructors do have to go through training to get this move right, or at least to get it to not look wrong. The orthodox movement pattern as defined by PSIA is not intuitive to a good strong parallel skier.

I chose my words pretty carefully.

A simultaneous release of both edges into the turn, with the skier centered over their skis, and doing *nothing* else is all that's required to perform a wedge Christie (WC) turn. Having less energy to work with with (aka being at at low speed/on low angle terrain) makes the percentage differential in what the two skis feel bigger (and therefore the wedge relationship larger) and is also easier to do.

The WC is an isolation of the blended skills required to initiate a good parallel turn. That's why it's a manuever at L2/L3 - to isolate the movements of good turn initiation. That's why I don't believe it's a "trick question" at exams. I think people don't understand what a WC really is, and what it shows, and that's why they go to "trick question!".

The "do nothing else" part is important (aka do not use rotation of the inside leg to make things start/stay parallel at the top half).

Fundamentally though - the task is: "start a turn from parallel using no rotary input and ride it out through the fall line"

 

[latitudes]

For anyone reading this thread that is planning to teach in Canada, note that this advice only applies to Americans - if you're planning to teach in Canada, you almost certainly will be required to have a CSIA or CASI Level 1 certification before teaching, or in some cases before being guaranteed a job. Also if you're getting certified in Canada you're obviously not expected to have teaching experience prior to the course, nor is your skiing expected to be at a passing standard - you're taught both of these things on course.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Y

As @4ster points out, no one can expect a beginner skier to do it the way the instructors are supposed to do it for that exam, and no beginner following an instructor down the hill trying to do wedge christies will detect the nuances instructors are required to understand. It might be interesting in another thread to discuss what mission such exam tasks serve.

Many beginner skiers actually do a WC that would pass Level 2. Why? If you teach them to release their edges and turn their legs on a fairly flat hill, a WC happens. They have no idea what they are trying to achieve and if flatten their skis and turn their legs, they do great WC's. Add a little speed and a little more pitch and they are making beautiful parallel turns.

Instructors are too busy trying to achieve the "result" instead of focusing on turning mechanics.

It is not a "trick maneuver". It requires precise, accurate skills. Mike King and I were in a fabulous clinic with Victor Guerdin - former demo team member/great skier/great teacher. One of his themes was that every turn was a variation of the wedge christie and if you can't do a decent wedge christie, there are some fundamentals missing in your skill set.

 

[LiquidFeet]

It's a "trick maneuver" if one's trainers are not able to teach one to do it properly. And many trainers are not able to do that.

Doing the wedge christy is easy if one's trainers are great teachers, have patience, want their charges to do well, go the extra mile with them, and can explain and demo clearly. Not all trainers are. Because one mountain has good trainers, instructors working at that mountain should be careful not to generalize their experience working with those good trainers to instructors across the rest of the nation.

I am not a sore loser; I did get that LII pin. I did my wedge christie just fine. But I feel for those who fail. And there are so many, as has been noted by others in this thread.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

It's a "trick maneuver" if one's trainers are not able to teach one to do it properly. And many trainers are not able to do that.

Doing the wedge christy is easy if one's trainers are great teachers, have patience, want their charges to do well, go the extra mile with them, and can explain and demo clearly. Not all trainers are. Because one mountain has good trainers, instructors working at that mountain should be careful not to generalize their experience working with those good trainers to instructors across the rest of the nation.

I am not a sore loser; I did get that LII pin. I did my wedge christie just fine, thank you. But I feel for those who fail. And there are so many, as has been noted by others in this thread.

I never suggested you were a sore loser. Are you referring to me with your comments about generalizations? I don't think that is fair.

Depending on where you learned and your skiing skills, it can take a significant amount of work to execute a decent WC. Many people don't bother to do that work and then are upset when they do not pass that maneuver. You can blame the test if you want or you can figure it out and better your skills.

If the examiners or trainers can't do it or teach it, then perhaps there should be a decision by PSIA as to whether it should be on the exam, but that is a different issue.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Nancy Hummel, my point is that it functions like a trick question on an exam because it's set up to weed out those whose training background is weak. That's what a trick question is.

I did not mean to imply that the maneuver should not be on the exam. My frustration with PSIA is that the educational opportunities for candidates is not equal everywhere. So many instructors don't have the opportunity to learn to do the wedge christie as it should be done, or at least to learn to avoid doing it as it shouldn't be done.

And no, you didn't imply that I was a sore loser. I said that in case anyone else might think that. I've been tooting this horn for years. PSIA should do more to support its hopeful candidates.

 

[Steve]

I'm in PSIA-E.

If I was certifying the organization they'd pass the skiing and fail the teaching.

The organization has very little handle on pedagogy. Lots of great individuals, but very poor dissemination of information directed towards instructors reaching their standards.

I cannot imagine any other professional certification organization in any field that would not provide clear materials and pathways to learning what they will be tested on.

 

[François Pugh]

"Have a pulse" is hyperbole. You must also be able to listen and demonstrate what they show you is the way to do it. For example, I'll bet if you demonstrated a snow-plough turn with a deep v and steep edge angles instead of a wedge with small v and small edge angles and foot steering, you would surely fail.

 

[LiquidFeet]

"Have a pulse" is hyperbole. You must also be able to listen and demonstrate what they show you is the way to do it. For example, I'll bet if you demonstrated a snow-plough turn with a deep v and steep edge angles instead of a wedge with small v and small edge angles and foot steering, you would surely fail.

Yes you would fail the LI exam.

But you'd get hired. I think the "pulse" statement originally posted in this thread, which I affirmed, applied to getting hired, not to passing a LI skiing exam. I could be misremembering. It's common here in New England to say all you need is a pulse to get hired. The shortstaffing is that bad.

 

[geepers]

For anyone reading this thread that is planning to teach in Canada, note that this advice only applies to Americans - if you're planning to teach in Canada, you almost certainly will be required to have a CSIA or CASI Level 1 certification before teaching, or in some cases before being guaranteed a job. Also if you're getting certified in Canada you're obviously not expected to have teaching experience prior to the course, nor is your skiing expected to be at a passing standard - you're taught both of these things on course.

In CSIA there's no requirement for teaching experience for L1, 2 and 3. No idea for L4.

In APSI (Australia) teaching experience is not required for L1 however employment in a ski school and 50 hours teaching is required for L2, with more teaching hours (and seasons working) required for L3 and L4.

 

[Blue Streak]

I'm in PSIA-E.

If I was certifying the organization they'd pass the skiing and fail the teaching.

The organization has very little handle on pedagogy. Lots of great individuals, but very poor dissemination of information directed towards instructors reaching their standards.

I cannot imagine any other professional certification organization in any field that would not provide clear materials and pathways to learning what they will be tested on.

I don’t feel that way about RM.
If I fail, it’s on me.

 

[latitudes]

For anyone reading this thread that is planning to teach in Canada, note that this advice only applies to Americans - if you're planning to teach in Canada, you almost certainly will be required to have a CSIA or CASI Level 1 certification before teaching, or in some cases before being guaranteed a job. Also if you're getting certified in Canada you're obviously not expected to have teaching experience prior to the course, nor is your skiing expected to be at a passing standard - you're taught both of these things on course.

In CSIA there's no requirement for teaching experience for L1, 2 and 3. No idea for L4.

For clarity:

In Canada, your training is primarily through the CSIA/CASI as part of the certification course. Snow schools often have their own training programs, but they are not required. You can go from being uncertified to Level 4 solely through taking CSIA courses.

Because your initial training is provided as part of the certification course, and because your insurance etc. is contingent on having a certification, you are required to complete the Level 1 course prior to working as a ski instructor. Hills may guarantee you a job prior to obtaining your Level 1, or have you work as an assistant instructor (usually unpaid), but you cannot teach without a certification, unlike in the PSIA.

No teaching experience is expected for the Level 1, and it technically wouldn't be required for Levels 2-4 although it would be more difficult to pass. You could, in theory, become a Level 4 instructor without ever teaching a real lesson.

As far as skiing goes, you are not expected to be at a passing standard prior to taking Level Courses. To take the Level 1 course, you're expected to be a competent parallel skier; to take the Level 2 course, you're expected to be at the Level 1 standard; to take the Level 3 course, you're expected to be at the Level 2 standard; etc.

 

[Blue Streak]

Sorry, I shouldn’t have said , “fail.”

 

[HDSkiing]

@Magi, your description of how to get the new outside ski to diverge at initiation is an interesting one. I think you are saying to tip it onto its big toe edge and maybe to "weight" it (perhaps by extending its leg to press the ski's edge downward onto the snow?). With extra pressure and extra edging, it will turn faster than the new inside ski and voila, you've got that wedge. Have I got that right? Or maybe you only mean extra edging does the trick.

It might be interesting in another thread to discuss what mission such exam tasks serve.

Ah the WC, the most dynamic turn in skiing (really I’m not kidding, well maybe, but just a little.

In RM, and someone can correct me if I’m wrong, it’s not a level 1 task but a level 2/3 task B/C as has been brought up it isolates and highlights some fundamentals in upper level skiing. While the wedge is a beginning maneuver taught to new skiers the WC is much more involved.

The divergence that @LiquidFeet mentions has to occur organically, not by the skier rotating the ski’s into a wedge, or stepping as in a Stem Christie (now a L3 task in RM). This organic divergence requires that the skis be in a parallel relationship in a traverse followed by a simultaneous release of the edges, & some lateral movement over that downhill ski, something many upper level skiers still might have an issue with when skiing parallel at a slow speed. As the skis “fall down the hill” the outside ski will rotate faster above the fall line, as you direct pressure to the outside ski, entering the fall line the inside ski will rotate faster after the fall line, matching with the other ski.

Sounds simple but there is a lot going on. What is often overlooked by L2 candidates is that many level 2 tasks require you to slow things way down, or isolate a skill or fundamental. Speed scrubs things, it’s when you are asked to perform precise maneuvers at a slow speed that is always the tell on many exam tasks.

Anyway I know we are in major thread drift but it is a great topic, not just the WC but the exam maneuvers at the various levels.