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Do people still do this?

Bad Bob

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Is the “pre-turn” still taught?

I have not heard it mentioned in a very long time. There have been several threads on this site recently talking about ‘short turns’ and ‘turning on steep’; those are just 2 places where the pre-turn excelled. It was taught and used a lot in the 60’s and 70’s, but do not remember it being spoken of in years. It was a time when the equipment made turn initiation a bit more challenging. This was a maneuver that helped a skier progress from intermediate to advanced. This would not be something seen on a modern race course but if you watch old footage it was used there too.

Here is how it worked.

From a traverse soften the edge angle on the skis and move your weight slightly forward. Often done by lowering the body position slightly.

As the skis turn into the hill increase the edging; this flexes the skis and creates the body position seen at the end of turn. You have loaded the skis by flexing them if you will. The increased edging was normally done from the ankles or knees.

Start the turn of your choice. Don’t think there is a better time to start your next turn than at the end of your current turn and that is what the skier has just simulated.

This can be drilled in a garland in the bumps and at just about any speed or snow condition. If you get the chance, play with it this weekend, you might like it.

Back to the original question. An old gray beard wants to know; Is the pre-turn still taught?
 

CalG

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If it's not taught, it's loose.... and that would be a loss.

The pre-turn is elementary in deep snow.

Hmm... these slarving, carving skis have got things all mixed up!

What once took a skier, now requires a quiver.

say's one gray beard to another.
 

James

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Here is how it worked.

From a traverse soften the edge angle on the skis and move your weight slightly forward. Often done by lowering the body position slightly.

As the skis turn into the hill increase the edging; this flexes the skis and creates the body position seen at the end of turn. You have loaded the skis by flexing them if you will. The increased edging was normally done from the ankles or knees.

Start the turn of your choice. Don’t think there is a better time to start your next turn than at the end of your current turn and that is what the skier has just simulated.

This can be drilled in a garland in the bumps and at just about any speed or snow condition. If you get the chance, play with it this weekend, you might like it.

Back to the original question. An old gray beard wants to know; Is the pre-turn still taught?
So you're preloading the front of the ski, then releasing? I don't really get it.
 

Kneale Brownson

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I use it like a virtual bump among a bunch of other moves to prepare clients for intro to moguls
 

CalG

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So you're preloading the front of the ski, then releasing? I don't really get it.

one good turn (controlled) serves another...

There is no future in playing catch up.
 
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Bad Bob

Bad Bob

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So you're preloading the front of the ski, then releasing? I don't really get it.
At that time we talked about and brought in 'dynamic balance' as well. You would send your COM down the hill and let your feet come around and catch up at the bottom of the turn.Today it would be call the Infinity move (today is much more refined in its description). If you look at the old short-swing you will even see elements of it there along with separation and quiet upper body.

The goal was to flex the entire ski and create a platform to initiate a turn from, if weight is slightly forward your tips will deflect up the hill not so much to weight the tips. Think doing a falling leaf in today's skiing.

The thought that keeps rolling through my simple addled brain is the forces we apply to a ski or a turn are no different today than the 'good old days'; the skis and boots of today just allow us to use those forces more efficiently. I just wonder why some of the older have fallen from common usage (many are best gone).
 

markojp

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Saw a PSIA examiner teaching that at Taos about 4 years back.
Some of the other instructors think it is somewhat hooky.

I have no idea what a pre-turn is, but then again, I'm pretty new to the party.
 
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graham418

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I am having a hard time visualizing. Can someone post video?
 

François Pugh

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Is the “pre-turn” still taught?

I have not heard it mentioned in a very long time. There have been several threads on this site recently talking about ‘short turns’ and ‘turning on steep’; those are just 2 places where the pre-turn excelled. It was taught and used a lot in the 60’s and 70’s, but do not remember it being spoken of in years. It was a time when the equipment made turn initiation a bit more challenging. This was a maneuver that helped a skier progress from intermediate to advanced. This would not be something seen on a modern race course but if you watch old footage it was used there too.

Here is how it worked.

From a traverse soften the edge angle on the skis and move your weight slightly forward. Often done by lowering the body position slightly.

As the skis turn into the hill increase the edging; this flexes the skis and creates the body position seen at the end of turn. You have loaded the skis by flexing them if you will. The increased edging was normally done from the ankles or knees.

Start the turn of your choice. Don’t think there is a better time to start your next turn than at the end of your current turn and that is what the skier has just simulated.

This can be drilled in a garland in the bumps and at just about any speed or snow condition. If you get the chance, play with it this weekend, you might like it.

Back to the original question. An old gray beard wants to know; Is the pre-turn still taught?
I'm having a hard time following your description. Please clarify.

Before the turn in question, you are either traversing across the slope on your uphill edges or ending the last turn on your uphill edge, yes? Since you said "from a traverse", I'll assume traversing on uphill edges.

"Soften your edges" I take to mean lessen the angle between your ski bases and the slope. Wouldn't that make your skis slip down the slope?
"As your skis turn into the hill" implies to me that you tipped your skis less uphill, but because they are now bent they are now starting an uphill turn, implying that you may have lessened the uphill tipping angle, but not by much so they are still tipped uphill
"skis turn into the hill increase your edging" ....increasing the tipping angle?? said skis are tipped uphill so your are turning up the hill?

In the distant past my carved turns required me to bend the tips by very strong tip pressure accomplished by a well timed strong forward weight shift - usually applied once the skis were on their way to being tipped into the new turn, aiming for max dynamic pressure at skis flat, and then continue tipping the skis in the direction of the new turn. My old skis were extremely stiff for my weight, as my prime concern in those days was stability at ludicrous speed, and that's what I had to buy to get it. So, very strong tip pre-bending required.

With my modern kinder-gentler-machine-gun-hand skis I don't need to pre-bend the tip; the side cut will bend the tip sufficiently for most desired turns with a central weight distribution. However, I usually still apply tip pressure at the start; carving on ice and boiler plate hard-pack (what westerners call ice:P) does require extra downforce at the start of the turn to keep the tips carving cleanly from transition, and the method works well enough on most snow too.

Only thing is, if trying to ski faster as little tip pressure as needed to make the turn is faster than more tip pressure.
 

Kneale Brownson

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A tightening of the radius at the end of the turn before transition to the next turn. Looking at the tracks, they would be in the shape of a fish hook.

This sums it up really well. As the “hook” occurs, greater upper/lower separation is created so that when the edges are released into the next turn, the tension helps the skis enter that turn.


Kind of like the windup before the pitch.
 
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Bad Bob

Bad Bob

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I am having a hard time visualizing. Can someone post video?

Went looking and found this. At around 6 seconds and 13 seconds you can see Killy getting prepping to start a turn, he turns the skis up the hill SLIGHTLY before initiating the turn. He is creating a platform to turn from. This guy was so good and smooth it all flows together and looks like one turn. The pre-turn was one of the things that helped him be that smooth in leather boots on 215CM racing skis.

Like most things it got carried to excess. PSIA added the "down-stem" to the progression for a while. After teaching the stem christie the down-stem was supposed to transition the student to parallel turns :nono:. How many people have fought an abstem or A-frame, and we were supposed to teach it :(.

My apologies for any confusion caused, it has been a very long time since I have entered into any kind of a technical ski discussion. Just reading some of the threads on PugSki of late set off an old light bulb on the topic. Thanks for putting up with me.

Time to go to work and earn the daily bread (before I go play hookie and make some turns at a local bump). Will try to remember to play with this a bit.

Happy Trails!
 

Uncle Louie

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I just ran @Bad Bob 's video in slow motion. I think you get even clearer view of it at 18 seconds. Note the downward move to increase pressure to the skis.
 
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Uncle Louie

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Tightening the radius at the end of the turn is one way to get the CoM to start downhill to cross the BoS.

Mike

Very true.

I used this as a drill for a few female Intermediate skiers at the last Jackson Hole Gathering. They noticed my track went "a little uphill before each turn" as they coined it. Once they were able to make that move they both noted the transition was easier into the next turn. I noticed the CoM moving latterly more. (success !)
 

Fuller

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This sums it up really well. As the “hook” occurs, greater upper/lower separation is created so that when the edges are released into the next turn, the tension helps the skis enter that turn.


Kind of like the windup before the pitch.

Isn't the same thing accomplished by completing the turn (C shapes) and getting to an early edge engagement on the new outside ski?
 

Uncle Louie

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Isn't the same thing accomplished by completing the turn (C shapes) and getting to an early edge engagement on the new outside ski?

Think of it as the move you mention ........on steroids :eek:
 

Fuller

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I'm saying this more for my own benefit as I am just now experiencing it; keeping a strong counter left over from the old turn greatly enhances the initiation into the new one. It really does make it easy.
 

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