^^^
Thought about it a bit more and wanted to add... the are undoubtedly people that excel quickly at some athletic things... I've seen very athletic, coordinated people who picked up golf extremely quickly and shoot better than me after just a few rounds. (Not that I'm any good... but I've been playing for a long time.)
Same in skiing... you could be one of those folks and if so, that's wonderful! I didn't want to imply you definitely weren't. But just based on odds/history that's less likely.
Rest assured I'm not any sort of athlete, given that most of last year was learning about athletic movement so as to minimize pain. Nor any kind of natural skier, given I made all the mistakes and had to conscientiously figure out then correct them. But I do learn well, so at least I got that going for me.
@agent00F, I've quoted some of your words from upthread, highlighted some of your words in
blue, and inserted my comments in
red. I'm looking forward to hearing more from you, and hopefully to seeing video.
....This year I've been working on figuring out how to carve.....Recently things started fitting together nicely, and I seem to be leaving two lines in the snow while enjoying the
exhilaration of shooting out of turns....
I could ski smooth lines slowly, but it felt nothing like this.
Your use of "exhilaration" and similar statements is similar to my experience of carving.
....I basically went from hardly carving (inconsistent edging) to nearly all carving
(staying on edges with hips low to the snow) down varied blue trails in a day. This rarely happens, so the community is understandably suspicious that you are misunderstanding what carving is. If you do post video, be prepared for either accolades, or hearing that you are carving but that you are "cheating" by doing it with "hip-dumping," or maybe you'll be told that no that's not carving. Given your descriptions, I can't predict which way this will go, but I'd bet one of the first two.
About hip dumping, that's certainly what I was doing when first starting with parallel, and I definitely still instinctively had some when things got rough, going into that day.
However much like these other aforementioned remainder of issues like not quite enough separation, they all start melting away as the body naturally wants to angulate (that Z shape instead of L) to keep a low balance. In fact, I finally figured out what angulation was for on that day.
Of course I had practiced the knee and hip pivot moves at home well before that, but for whatever reason couldn't apply them right previously. Ie. I can focus on it and get a bit better, but it wasn't naturally happening as much when I focused on whatever else to work on.
.....the point here is that most all descriptions of how to carve instead involve movement patterns. That's how most people learn, so ... lowest common denominator ... that's how most instruction approaches teaching.
....a key movement might be tipping the feet, but as I try to focus on that everything else is moving way too fast down even a flat corduroy blue run and the slightest out of balance can lead to wobbly recoveries at best. Yes, it's hard at first to stay balanced while skiing straight down the fall line, body upright, just tipping the feet, on even a flattish pitch. But to be an expert at carving you need to be able to lay pencil-thin lines at slow speeds while upright (not angulated) as well as when going fast while bent forward and angulated like a racer at the gate. So, yes, you need to be able to carve even without the help of lots of momentum. Think of it as delayed gratification; in the long run being able to tip the feet at the ankles while heading straight down a flattish run and not falling over will serve you well. Look for those pencil-thin tracks behind you. You have to start those carved railroad tracks with ankle-tipping alone, a small movement, not with big moves of the upper body while the invisible hand of momentum holds you up. Railroad tracks is an isolation exercise for maintaining balance while working the ankles alone. Just do it.
It's worth mentioned again I could leave relatively thin lines on gentle slopes before this, it just wasn't *carving*, ie that rather different and distinct mindset and feel of momentum and acceleration. Perhaps I was already doing (ie did) what you're prescribing here, as prereq skills to to actual carving, but hit a wall when extrapolating it to blue slope angles, where I just couldn't keep on edge as the speed shot up.
On account of the advice here, I went to try this new carving on green slopes, and it went fine. At first without higher momentum it was harder to feel the same effects, but after couple runs it just felt a slower/less angled version of what was happening on the blues before. I'm sure there's many details to work on, but the general gist of it seems in place.
....But in contrast, when I focus on aligning the upper to lower body and compressing into the snow, everything else largely works itself out. You are new to skiing so your terms are not the more common ones we here are used to reading. I'm thinking you mean angulating. Look up the term to see if that's what you are doing.
....the upper body "intercepts" and compresses against the lower, and if you balanced that "flight path" correctly, everything stacks to apply max pressure mostly to the outside ski Angulation directs pressure to the outside ski. Angulation means you bend sideways-ish so that your cold nose drips over the outside ski and the weight of your shoulders and chest overs over the outside ski. Angulation also can aid in getting high edge angles when it involves dropping the hip inside the turn. There are good ways and not-so-good ways to manage angulation.
....The first thing I notice ... about vids of carving is just how low the body/hips get to the snow That's a marketing choice. It's what people want, not necessarily what they need. Many people want a fast track to experthood, and they want applause from the chair. ...and that simply wasn't happening before I dynamically stacked/balance weight on the skis properly. I think this means you are angulating to direct pressure to the outside ski, which is good. The easiest way to do this is to "hip dump." Since you've stumbled upon carving so early and fast in your skiing career, you may have also stumbled upon hip dumping. If yes, then you can just as easily get rid of it. Do this fast before that movement pattern gets embedded deeply into your skiing. This is the moment to attack it, if you are indeed a hip dumper. Post video!
....it was harder to learn carving properly on greens before, perhaps because the speed was insufficient for body weight/momentum pressure to dominate and thus in a way "force" you to do the right thing. Yes, indeed. Also, no thrills when going slow. But it's worth the effort.
....now I'm instead moving the body above (above??) the line drawn by the skis if that makes sense
To elaborate, beforehand I had this notion that movements were all relative to the body, arguably because that's how it's portrayed in most all the literature. So "tip my feet" meant moving the bottoms of the feet sideways relative to the knee and rest of the body. In contrast, now I think of the ski edge as the reference point, and moving the body over that, which helped with understanding balance relative to that point.
karlo had apt terminology that it's a differing conceptualization.
, and thus know I'm pressuring them on edge. Do you lean your shoulders and chest, or move your whole body uphill of your feet at the start of the turn? Or by "above" do you mean something else?
Honestly I don't think much about it, I just move the upper body where I judge I'll need the weight soon. What I try to feel for is efficient/effective stacking of that weight, to minimize any "muscling" motions, and the more I can relax without veering off the more I know it's ~correct.
....Snow's been lackluster recently....there's less leeway for errors in judging momentum (and therefore what angle to compress onto) when it's harder to dig into. I keep thinking this word "compress" means you fold your body over at the hips or waist and lean out over the outside ski. Have I got that right or wrong?
I try to pivot at the hips and angle the upper body however it needs to be angled. I'm sure there's some waist movement (I can feel it) but again I don't think too much about it.
A problem that had to be identified and corrected before I was able to carve was this instinctive waist bending in lieu of hip pivoting on the right side. Probably because I sat on my ass through most of life and had bad posture. As a great side-effect of all this, I've been paying attention to posture and stacking weight when away from the slopes and it's benefited not just walking/sitting posture but also breathing. Coincidentally that waist instead of hip movement was also why I had persistent right knee pain after skiing and could never do it two days in a row. Turns out I never walked correctly my entire life. Seriously someone should market this.
....I had that self-reflective moment wondering if I was just deluding myself, but I don't believe so given how low I now get onto the snow so long as there's enough momentum to angle for high pressure. Low to snow is fine. Now do it upright, laying thin tracks, on green terrain. Then you'll be versatile.
....Another realization is that even though I'm keeping my legs/thighs much closer together than before, frequently touching or at least on that plane, the feet are often further apart due to the angle....I'm getting leg angles where one knee is getting close to the other foot.. It is called vertical separation when the inside boot is close/touching the outside leg up near its knee. Nothing to worry about; this is necessary for equal and high edge angles.
....the feel of launching out of corners....the body slingshots out the other way (hopefully with the skis pushing behind your center of mass) I'm curious about this launching and slingshotting. Do you mean you feel yourself slowing down and speeding up inside each turn?[
I have a much more keen sense of the forces involved now, such as the drag on the skis, or the centripetal force of the snow surface pushing back increasing into the corner (which in turn alters the body velocity vector). Basically the motion physics of it all makes sense now.
....How well everything came together when I started thinking about
actively balancing with momentum was rather profound. This is a great thing to feel. It's what kids feel when they finally go fast enough on their bikes to stay upright without training wheels. Momentum holds them up.
....it can be difficult to grasp "center of mass" When you use the term "momentum," it sounds like you are tracking your center of mass on its different line from the feet/skis. That's good.
....I tend to be adventurous, or perhaps foolhardy. ....how comfortable it felt with the edges reliably locked down with the application of pressure, no matter how fast I was soon going. From that base it felt I could try anything without the fear of crash. Many who are attracted to skiing are adventurous and love speed. And when people first carve, they do feel very secure since the darn skis are no longer slipping diagonally across the snow. the feeling is indeed reassuring. Be sure to do your speedy stuff on empty trails so you don't take anyone else out. The safety of others ahead of you, not just your safety, is your responsibility.
Speaking of which, the other day to avoid a kid in the middle of a narrowish curving run I had to take a much wider line which resulted in some ridiculous speed. I decided to stay on edge instead of hockey stop braking, which went alright until swiping a solid ice wall. That pretty much ended the day and hopeful the sore in my left knee will go away soon.
....So the question here if is anyone else understands carving as I described it, and if so why it differs so much from orthodox curriculum (and presumably how most others approach it)? I'm not a natural skiing talent nor any kind of athlete. People learn differently. You are passionate about skiing and totally addicted. Welcome to the club.
....the purpose of this thread is to bring up how learning carving directly from articles and vids was unintuitive for me, and explaining how I came upon a seemingly differing approach which didn't appear on this instructional material. You've used your enthusiasm and fearlessness to teach yourself some good stuff about skiing. Bravo! How quickly things progressed was as much a pleasant surprise for me as it's seemingly not for you....I was on rental gear on the fateful day mentioned... Head short radius beginner skis very responsive to tipping and pressure.
Beginner rentals are great for carving, but instructors are encouraged to teach people speed control turns that keep them and others safe on the hill at first. Story: a teacher can teach a beginner adult to carve in one hour on those short radius rental skis. I did this for a first day beginner once (Guilty! I was new to teaching, so I had an excuse.) She could not hold her feet parallel or in a wedge; nothing worked for her. We stood at the top of our beginner run (don't ask how we got there) and I had to do something to get her down. I chose to have her do the Airplane Drill. That's where the skier traverses slowly across the hill, arms stretched out to the sides to simulate airplane wings. Tip the uphill wing downward toward the snow, and let the whole upper body bend sideways, tipping along with that arm. The other "wing" stretches upwards, pointing at the sky. The skis will respond by turning in a nice carve, going "around the corner" to bring the skier across the hill the other direction. Clean tracks in the snow! Edges will totally grip. Skier will feel very secure; no slipping involved. When heading across the hill in the other way, skier tips wings in the opposite direction, uphill hand down again, downhill hand up, to make a turn in the other direction. Nothing else is required. It's like a carnival ride; the skis give the skier an exhilarating ride immediately with no skill necessary. I felt guilty having this woman "ski" down the hill this way. She was giggling the whole time. But I had to get her down somehow and did not want to call ski patrol for a courtesy ride. I knew all along that this woman was at the mountain for a once-only ski day, and was never going to ski again, and she did enjoy that ride, so that frustrating lesson turned out to not be a total loss for her.
Last year I similar took a friend who was still stemming to the top to check out the view. It was a mountain we drove hours to and I felt she really owed it to herself to get something out of it beside the low green run you can't see anything from, and also thought she could learn to stem better on the easy way down. Ski patrol managed to find us before I could teach her tipping; I'll try the airplane method next time.
. I'm out.
dbostedoAsst. Gathermeister
Jim KenneyTravel Correspondent
DwightPractitioner of skiing, solid and liquid