Sometimes un-tipping is useful - i.e. start tipping as we release the old turn, say in a quick switch, bigger angles - otherwise the hips sometimes move in first etc.
Agree with teaching It the way you said first tho
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Do I understand carving differently from most others?
- Thread starter agent00F
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Sometimes un-tipping is useful - i.e. start tipping as we release the old turn, say in a quick switch, bigger angles - otherwise the hips sometimes move in first etc.
Agree with teaching It the way you said first tho
agent00F said:
So another thread of tipping the feet doesn't work versus how much better it is creating the turn with upper body, pretty much? Lots of these lately!
About "compressing into the snow", pressing into the skis and all that good upper body driven skiing stuff - Skiing "in compression" is fairly common but not conducive to performance skiing. Buy JF Beaulieu's educational videos, has very interesting things to say about "skiing in compression" (subpar) versus uhh - I forget what he calls the better one, "relax into angles"? There is a time to "resist pressure", but that's after creating angles!
Btw - "aligning the upper body" sounds slow, so you have either no performance or no offset in short/slalom turns, which is almost the same thing.
P.s. why does subpar mean worse than otherwise? Isn't lower than par uhh, good?
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"Par" as in "Average". It's only good in golf since the goal is to be below par - or below the average score. In any other context, "subpar" just means "below average".
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So, you started last year doing pizzas, then this year learned carving from books and videos and now you're carving hip to snow?
Since I'm watching some brit movie right now, please fill in the accent: so this is bloody April first then, eh?
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I spend most of last year tipping the skis per Lito's video linked, but couldn't consistently stay on the edges, in hindsight due to inconsistent balance and thus weight on the skis. The compression for me at least reduces the turn radius, which is a way to control direction and speed, which you can hopefully agree is useful. Otherwise you're at the mercy of the default turn radius.
As to "initiating with the upper body", this isn't what happens in carving, since there's separation (of the upper body momentum) as described in my comments above. It's arguably "slow", since doing it smoothly requires planning from the previous turn where to direct that momentum, but after some pondering that preparation seems necessary from physics first principles.
The fundamental insight in all of this was instead of seeing speed as a peril, to be suppressed through various manner of "speed control", instead use the corresponding momentum as a resource to be expended where it's most useful, in this case to balance on the edges.
I tend to be adventurous, or perhaps foolhardy--for instance, I went down a blue face mostly parallel (via aforementioned tipping, + some side skidding) on my second day, and a short flat black on ~day 5. There were more than a few crashes along the way, but adversity can be motivational. I also had the benefit of living close enough to a resort for ~30+ days on the snow last year.
Also a correction if I might: the purpose of this thread is to bring up how learning carving directly from articles and vids was unintuitive for me, and explaining how I came upon a seemingly differing approach which didn't appear on this instructional material. How quickly things progressed was as much a pleasant surprise for me as it's seemingly not for you.
Would it further raise your ire that I was on rental gear on the fateful day mentioned? It was Head short radius beginner skis very responsive to tipping and pressure.
I suppose it is time for spring skiing after all.
The head link rentals have similar profile (~120-70-100) to their supershapes, which are basically a SL design. Left up to the reader whether such gear is more conducive to learn carving than 15m+ all-mountain or fat skis.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying you've got this carving thing going on. Congratulations on your recent breakthrough.
Now you need to perfect it. You have the main thing: it's not about speed control; it's about speed maximization. You want to ski with as little friction as possible and as little force pushing you back from the tips. Therefore do not, at least for now try to alter you turn radius by using more tip pressure to bend the ski into a smaller turn; that will slow you down. Instead make the turn radius smaller by tipping the ski more on edge.
You mention that things happen really fast carving on a blue run. It's easier to learn when things are not happening so fast. What you should do is, now that you've got this, practice carving on green pitches where things don't happen so fast. You can do this. You will need more counter balance (angulation) and maybe more counter rotation (keep the belly pointing downhill as the skis turn towards the sides) at slower speeds, but it will be easier to concentrate on what's happening.
Now you need to perfect it. You have the main thing: it's not about speed control; it's about speed maximization. You want to ski with as little friction as possible and as little force pushing you back from the tips. Therefore do not, at least for now try to alter you turn radius by using more tip pressure to bend the ski into a smaller turn; that will slow you down. Instead make the turn radius smaller by tipping the ski more on edge.
You mention that things happen really fast carving on a blue run. It's easier to learn when things are not happening so fast. What you should do is, now that you've got this, practice carving on green pitches where things don't happen so fast. You can do this. You will need more counter balance (angulation) and maybe more counter rotation (keep the belly pointing downhill as the skis turn towards the sides) at slower speeds, but it will be easier to concentrate on what's happening.
I am wondering about what is behind door #3.
I used to ride the NYC subway everyday. Seen lots of stuff. Nothing is ever as it seem.
Just thinking you seem to know a lot about skiing for a second year newbie.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying you've got this carving thing going on. Congratulations on your recent breakthrough.
Now you need to perfect it. You have the main thing: it's not about speed control; it's about speed maximization. You want to ski with as little friction as possible and as little force pushing you back from the tips. Therefore do not, at least for now try to alter you turn radius by using more tip pressure to bend the ski into a smaller turn; that will slow you down. Instead make the turn radius smaller by tipping the ski more on edge.
You mention that things happen really fast carving on a blue run. It's easier to learn when things are not happening so fast. What you should do is, now that you've got this, practice carving on green pitches where things don't happen so fast. You can do this. You will need more counter balance (angulation) and maybe more counter rotation (keep the belly pointing downhill as the skis turn towards the sides) at slower speeds, but it will be easier to concentrate on what's happening.
Very much appreciate the advice, but I should explain that my enthusiasm for creating this thread was a result of how comfortable it felt with the edges reliably locked down with the application of pressure, no matter how fast I was soon going. From that base it felt I could try anything without the fear of crash. Now again it's certainly well within the realm of possibility I'm deluded as to my carving ability, but do give me enough credit that I can tell where one knee is relative to the other foot. I certainly didn't expect to be so angled on the edges so soon, and was totally shocked the first time it "just happened" as I threw more and more weight into the turn.
I can't disagree that tipping is good advice, it greatly help me get to parallel much quicker than typically the case, but the conversation I was trying to start was that maybe simply tipping or the other typical advice isn't enough, or else I surely would've at least carved some with all the tipping et al I did last year. Rather as I mentioned in the "learn from Ted Ligerty" thread, carving seems to benefit from an entirely different mental approach predicated on momentum and balance and the resulting pressure, rather than thinking about it as body movements.
I am wondering about what is behind door #3.
I used to ride the NYC subway everyday. Seen lots of stuff. Nothing is ever as it seem.
Just thinking you seem to know a lot about skiing for a second year newbie.
It helped to have the right mindset; it bothers me to not understand something. I've looked a lot into why the first ski shops want to sell newbies (~95mm, closer to 20m r than 15) differs so much from rentals.
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Don't have to sell me. I am not in the market to buy anything.
Just thinking you seem to know a lot about skiing for a second year newbie.
I pondered over these sentiments some, and wonder if there's a possibly low expectation set for ski newbies. Such that if I said I've been doing this for 5 yr, or 10 yr, all would be well/better, even if that reflects less well on the student. If anything, I'm of the opposite opinion that were a time machine available and thus could coach myself a year ago, I could've reached this point much sooner. There's some basic underlying athleticism and familiarity necessary for let's say carving which was much needed, but a lot of time was spent last year experimenting with less effective/intuitive ideas.
I'll try to get some next I go with anyone. The guys/gals I started out with have fallen by the wayside.
2 thoughts... yes, if you'd said you've been asking for 5 or 10 years the doubting posts wouldn't have shown up (probably).
The other point is that most everyone here probably knows or has seen a new-ish or occasional skier who overrates their abilities... maybe they can carve but can't alter turn shape or deal with terrain changes. Maybe they can ski fast but can't make short turns. Maybe they can ski switch but skid everything. Etc.
It's easy to assume someone new to the sport might fall into that category when you've seen it before.
^^^
Thought about it a bit more and wanted to add... the are undoubtedly people that excel quickly at some athletic things... I've seen very athletic, coordinated people who picked up golf extremely quickly and shoot better than me after just a few rounds. (Not that I'm any good... but I've been playing for a long time.)
Same in skiing... you could be one of those folks and if so, that's wonderful! I didn't want to imply you definitely weren't. But just based on odds/history that's less likely.
Thought about it a bit more and wanted to add... the are undoubtedly people that excel quickly at some athletic things... I've seen very athletic, coordinated people who picked up golf extremely quickly and shoot better than me after just a few rounds. (Not that I'm any good... but I've been playing for a long time.)
Same in skiing... you could be one of those folks and if so, that's wonderful! I didn't want to imply you definitely weren't. But just based on odds/history that's less likely.
@agent00F, I've quoted some of your words from upthread, highlighted some of your words in blue, and inserted my comments in red. I'm looking forward to hearing more from you, and hopefully to seeing video.
....This year I've been working on figuring out how to carve.....Recently things started fitting together nicely, and I seem to be leaving two lines in the snow while enjoying the exhilaration of shooting out of turns....I could ski smooth lines slowly, but it felt nothing like this. Your use of "exhilaration" and similar statements is similar to my experience of carving.
....I basically went from hardly carving (inconsistent edging) to nearly all carving (staying on edges with hips low to the snow) down varied blue trails in a day. This rarely happens, so the community is understandably suspicious that you are misunderstanding what carving is. If you do post video, be prepared for either accolades, or hearing that you are carving but that you are "cheating" by doing it with "hip-dumping," or maybe you'll be told that no that's not carving. Given your descriptions, I can't predict which way this will go, but I'd bet one of the first two.
.....the point here is that most all descriptions of how to carve instead involve movement patterns. That's how most people learn, so ... lowest common denominator ... that's how most instruction approaches teaching.
....a key movement might be tipping the feet, but as I try to focus on that everything else is moving way too fast down even a flat corduroy blue run and the slightest out of balance can lead to wobbly recoveries at best. Yes, it's hard at first to stay balanced while skiing straight down the fall line, body upright, just tipping the feet, on even a flattish pitch. But to be an expert at carving you need to be able to lay pencil-thin lines at slow speeds while upright (not angulated) as well as when going fast while bent forward and angulated like a racer at the gate. So, yes, you need to be able to carve even without the help of lots of momentum. Think of it as delayed gratification; in the long run being able to tip the feet at the ankles while heading straight down a flattish run and not falling over will serve you well. Look for those pencil-thin tracks behind you. You have to start those carved railroad tracks with ankle-tipping alone, a small movement, not with big moves of the upper body while the invisible hand of momentum holds you up. Railroad tracks is an isolation exercise for maintaining balance while working the ankles alone. Just do it.
....But in contrast, when I focus on aligning the upper to lower body and compressing into the snow, everything else largely works itself out. You are new to skiing so your terms are not the more common ones we here are used to reading. I'm thinking you mean angulating. Look up the term to see if that's what you are doing.
....the upper body "intercepts" and compresses against the lower, and if you balanced that "flight path" correctly, everything stacks to apply max pressure mostly to the outside ski Angulation directs pressure to the outside ski. Angulation means you bend sideways-ish so that your cold nose drips over the outside ski and the weight of your shoulders and chest overs over the outside ski. Angulation also can aid in getting high edge angles when it involves dropping the hip inside the turn. There are good ways and not-so-good ways to manage angulation.
....The first thing I notice ... about vids of carving is just how low the body/hips get to the snow That's a marketing choice. It's what people want, not necessarily what they need. Many people want a fast track to experthood, and they want applause from the chair.
....and that simply wasn't happening before I dynamically stacked/balance weight on the skis properly. I think this means you are angulating to direct pressure to the outside ski, which is good. The easiest way to do this is to "hip dump." Since you've stumbled upon carving so early and fast in your skiing career, you may have also stumbled upon hip dumping. If yes, then you can just as easily get rid of it. Do this fast before that movement pattern gets embedded deeply into your skiing. This is the moment to attack it, if you are indeed a hip dumper. Post video!
....it was harder to learn carving properly on greens before, perhaps because the speed was insufficient for body weight/momentum pressure to dominate and thus in a way "force" you to do the right thing. Yes, indeed. Also, no thrills when going slow. But it's worth the effort.
....now I'm instead moving the body above (above??) the line drawn by the skis if that makes sense, and thus know I'm pressuring them on edge. Do you lean your shoulders and chest, or move your whole body uphill of your feet at the start of the turn? Or by "above" do you mean something else?
....Snow's been lackluster recently....there's less leeway for errors in judging momentum (and therefore what angle to compress onto) when it's harder to dig into. I keep thinking this word "compress" means you fold your body over at the hips or waist and lean out over the outside ski. Have I got that right or wrong?
....I had that self-reflective moment wondering if I was just deluding myself, but I don't believe so given how low I now get onto the snow so long as there's enough momentum to angle for high pressure. Low to snow is fine. Now do it upright, laying thin tracks, on green terrain. Then you'll be versatile.
....Another realization is that even though I'm keeping my legs/thighs much closer together than before, frequently touching or at least on that plane, the feet are often further apart due to the angle....I'm getting leg angles where one knee is getting close to the other foot.. It is called vertical separation when the inside boot is close/touching the outside leg up near its knee. Nothing to worry about; this is necessary for equal and high edge angles.
....the feel of launching out of corners....the body slingshots out the other way (hopefully with the skis pushing behind your center of mass) I'm curious about this launching and slingshotting. Do you mean you feel yourself slowing down and speeding up inside each turn?
....How well everything came together when I started thinking about actively balancing with momentum was rather profound. This is a great thing to feel. It's what kids feel when they finally go fast enough on their bikes to stay upright without training wheels. Momentum holds them up.
....it can be difficult to grasp "center of mass" When you use the term "momentum," it sounds like you are tracking your center of mass on its different line from the feet/skis. That's good.
....I tend to be adventurous, or perhaps foolhardy. ....how comfortable it felt with the edges reliably locked down with the application of pressure, no matter how fast I was soon going. From that base it felt I could try anything without the fear of crash. Many who are attracted to skiing are adventurous and love speed. And when people first carve, they do feel very secure since the darn skis are no longer slipping diagonally across the snow. the feeling is indeed reassuring. Be sure to do your speedy stuff on empty trails so you don't take anyone else out. The safety of others ahead of you, not just your safety, is your responsibility.
....So the question here if is anyone else understands carving as I described it, and if so why it differs so much from orthodox curriculum (and presumably how most others approach it)? I'm not a natural skiing talent nor any kind of athlete. People learn differently. You are passionate about skiing and totally addicted. Welcome to the club.
....the purpose of this thread is to bring up how learning carving directly from articles and vids was unintuitive for me, and explaining how I came upon a seemingly differing approach which didn't appear on this instructional material. You've used your enthusiasm and fearlessness to teach yourself some good stuff about skiing. Bravo! How quickly things progressed was as much a pleasant surprise for me as it's seemingly not for you....I was on rental gear on the fateful day mentioned... Head short radius beginner skis very responsive to tipping and pressure.
Beginner rentals are great for carving, but instructors are encouraged to teach people speed control turns that keep them and others safe on the hill at first. Story: a teacher can teach a beginner adult to carve in one hour on those short radius rental skis. I did this for a first day beginner once (Guilty! I was new to teaching, so I had an excuse.) She could not hold her feet parallel or in a wedge; nothing worked for her. We stood at the top of our beginner run (don't ask how we got there) and I had to do something to get her down. I chose to have her do the Airplane Drill. That's where the skier traverses slowly across the hill, arms stretched out to the sides to simulate airplane wings. Tip the uphill wing downward toward the snow, and let the whole upper body bend sideways, tipping along with that arm. The other "wing" stretches upwards, pointing at the sky. The skis will respond by turning in a nice carve, going "around the corner" to bring the skier across the hill the other direction. Clean tracks in the snow! Edges will totally grip. Skier will feel very secure; no slipping involved. When heading across the hill in the other way, skier tips wings in the opposite direction, uphill hand down again, downhill hand up, to make a turn in the other direction. Nothing else is required. It's like a carnival ride; the skis give the skier an exhilarating ride immediately with no skill necessary. I felt guilty having this woman "ski" down the hill this way. She was giggling the whole time. But I had to get her down somehow and did not want to call ski patrol for a courtesy ride. I knew all along that this woman was at the mountain for a once-only ski day, and was never going to ski again, and she did enjoy that ride, so that frustrating lesson turned out to not be a total loss for her.
....This year I've been working on figuring out how to carve.....Recently things started fitting together nicely, and I seem to be leaving two lines in the snow while enjoying the exhilaration of shooting out of turns....I could ski smooth lines slowly, but it felt nothing like this. Your use of "exhilaration" and similar statements is similar to my experience of carving.
....I basically went from hardly carving (inconsistent edging) to nearly all carving (staying on edges with hips low to the snow) down varied blue trails in a day. This rarely happens, so the community is understandably suspicious that you are misunderstanding what carving is. If you do post video, be prepared for either accolades, or hearing that you are carving but that you are "cheating" by doing it with "hip-dumping," or maybe you'll be told that no that's not carving. Given your descriptions, I can't predict which way this will go, but I'd bet one of the first two.
.....the point here is that most all descriptions of how to carve instead involve movement patterns. That's how most people learn, so ... lowest common denominator ... that's how most instruction approaches teaching.
....a key movement might be tipping the feet, but as I try to focus on that everything else is moving way too fast down even a flat corduroy blue run and the slightest out of balance can lead to wobbly recoveries at best. Yes, it's hard at first to stay balanced while skiing straight down the fall line, body upright, just tipping the feet, on even a flattish pitch. But to be an expert at carving you need to be able to lay pencil-thin lines at slow speeds while upright (not angulated) as well as when going fast while bent forward and angulated like a racer at the gate. So, yes, you need to be able to carve even without the help of lots of momentum. Think of it as delayed gratification; in the long run being able to tip the feet at the ankles while heading straight down a flattish run and not falling over will serve you well. Look for those pencil-thin tracks behind you. You have to start those carved railroad tracks with ankle-tipping alone, a small movement, not with big moves of the upper body while the invisible hand of momentum holds you up. Railroad tracks is an isolation exercise for maintaining balance while working the ankles alone. Just do it.
....But in contrast, when I focus on aligning the upper to lower body and compressing into the snow, everything else largely works itself out. You are new to skiing so your terms are not the more common ones we here are used to reading. I'm thinking you mean angulating. Look up the term to see if that's what you are doing.
....the upper body "intercepts" and compresses against the lower, and if you balanced that "flight path" correctly, everything stacks to apply max pressure mostly to the outside ski Angulation directs pressure to the outside ski. Angulation means you bend sideways-ish so that your cold nose drips over the outside ski and the weight of your shoulders and chest overs over the outside ski. Angulation also can aid in getting high edge angles when it involves dropping the hip inside the turn. There are good ways and not-so-good ways to manage angulation.
....The first thing I notice ... about vids of carving is just how low the body/hips get to the snow That's a marketing choice. It's what people want, not necessarily what they need. Many people want a fast track to experthood, and they want applause from the chair.
....and that simply wasn't happening before I dynamically stacked/balance weight on the skis properly. I think this means you are angulating to direct pressure to the outside ski, which is good. The easiest way to do this is to "hip dump." Since you've stumbled upon carving so early and fast in your skiing career, you may have also stumbled upon hip dumping. If yes, then you can just as easily get rid of it. Do this fast before that movement pattern gets embedded deeply into your skiing. This is the moment to attack it, if you are indeed a hip dumper. Post video!
....it was harder to learn carving properly on greens before, perhaps because the speed was insufficient for body weight/momentum pressure to dominate and thus in a way "force" you to do the right thing. Yes, indeed. Also, no thrills when going slow. But it's worth the effort.
....now I'm instead moving the body above (above??) the line drawn by the skis if that makes sense, and thus know I'm pressuring them on edge. Do you lean your shoulders and chest, or move your whole body uphill of your feet at the start of the turn? Or by "above" do you mean something else?
....Snow's been lackluster recently....there's less leeway for errors in judging momentum (and therefore what angle to compress onto) when it's harder to dig into. I keep thinking this word "compress" means you fold your body over at the hips or waist and lean out over the outside ski. Have I got that right or wrong?
....I had that self-reflective moment wondering if I was just deluding myself, but I don't believe so given how low I now get onto the snow so long as there's enough momentum to angle for high pressure. Low to snow is fine. Now do it upright, laying thin tracks, on green terrain. Then you'll be versatile.
....Another realization is that even though I'm keeping my legs/thighs much closer together than before, frequently touching or at least on that plane, the feet are often further apart due to the angle....I'm getting leg angles where one knee is getting close to the other foot.. It is called vertical separation when the inside boot is close/touching the outside leg up near its knee. Nothing to worry about; this is necessary for equal and high edge angles.
....the feel of launching out of corners....the body slingshots out the other way (hopefully with the skis pushing behind your center of mass) I'm curious about this launching and slingshotting. Do you mean you feel yourself slowing down and speeding up inside each turn?
....How well everything came together when I started thinking about actively balancing with momentum was rather profound. This is a great thing to feel. It's what kids feel when they finally go fast enough on their bikes to stay upright without training wheels. Momentum holds them up.
....it can be difficult to grasp "center of mass" When you use the term "momentum," it sounds like you are tracking your center of mass on its different line from the feet/skis. That's good.
....I tend to be adventurous, or perhaps foolhardy. ....how comfortable it felt with the edges reliably locked down with the application of pressure, no matter how fast I was soon going. From that base it felt I could try anything without the fear of crash. Many who are attracted to skiing are adventurous and love speed. And when people first carve, they do feel very secure since the darn skis are no longer slipping diagonally across the snow. the feeling is indeed reassuring. Be sure to do your speedy stuff on empty trails so you don't take anyone else out. The safety of others ahead of you, not just your safety, is your responsibility.
....So the question here if is anyone else understands carving as I described it, and if so why it differs so much from orthodox curriculum (and presumably how most others approach it)? I'm not a natural skiing talent nor any kind of athlete. People learn differently. You are passionate about skiing and totally addicted. Welcome to the club.
....the purpose of this thread is to bring up how learning carving directly from articles and vids was unintuitive for me, and explaining how I came upon a seemingly differing approach which didn't appear on this instructional material. You've used your enthusiasm and fearlessness to teach yourself some good stuff about skiing. Bravo! How quickly things progressed was as much a pleasant surprise for me as it's seemingly not for you....I was on rental gear on the fateful day mentioned... Head short radius beginner skis very responsive to tipping and pressure.
Beginner rentals are great for carving, but instructors are encouraged to teach people speed control turns that keep them and others safe on the hill at first. Story: a teacher can teach a beginner adult to carve in one hour on those short radius rental skis. I did this for a first day beginner once (Guilty! I was new to teaching, so I had an excuse.) She could not hold her feet parallel or in a wedge; nothing worked for her. We stood at the top of our beginner run (don't ask how we got there) and I had to do something to get her down. I chose to have her do the Airplane Drill. That's where the skier traverses slowly across the hill, arms stretched out to the sides to simulate airplane wings. Tip the uphill wing downward toward the snow, and let the whole upper body bend sideways, tipping along with that arm. The other "wing" stretches upwards, pointing at the sky. The skis will respond by turning in a nice carve, going "around the corner" to bring the skier across the hill the other direction. Clean tracks in the snow! Edges will totally grip. Skier will feel very secure; no slipping involved. When heading across the hill in the other way, skier tips wings in the opposite direction, uphill hand down again, downhill hand up, to make a turn in the other direction. Nothing else is required. It's like a carnival ride; the skis give the skier an exhilarating ride immediately with no skill necessary. I felt guilty having this woman "ski" down the hill this way. She was giggling the whole time. But I had to get her down somehow and did not want to call ski patrol for a courtesy ride. I knew all along that this woman was at the mountain for a once-only ski day, and was never going to ski again, and she did enjoy that ride, so that frustrating lesson turned out to not be a total loss for her.
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Regarding beginner skis and carving, a real eye opener for me last season was going out on our beginner magic skis — 136 long and 68 under foot. What a hoot! These things can carve like nobody’s business! Radius of 9 meters. Try it, you’ll like it!
Yup, just like that.^
I have a pair that I wear while teaching never-evers. I spent a year on 120s. Had a blast and learned to be centered. They go around corners like a go-cart.
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