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agent00F

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This year I've been working on figuring out how to carve, ie watching videos and reading descriptions, and then trying all assortment of methods out on the slope. Recently things started fitting together nicely, and I seem to be leaving two lines in the snow while enjoying the exhilaration of shooting out of turns.

However, as I thought about how that worked out, as if the goal were to teach it to someone else, the way I would describe its essential character is different than how it's taught/explained elsewhere, which is frankly puzzling to me.

In short, when I'm looking to carve, I see it as a balance management exercise (pressing into the snow) of the momentum and inertia of the body going across the slope. To elaborate, as I squirt out of a turn, my legs/skis are going in a certain direction, and upper body is similarly moving but at slightly more downhill angle. Then as the legs come around downwards as the skis initiate the turn, the upper body "intercepts" and compresses against the lower, and if you balanced that "flight path" correctly, everything stacks to apply max pressure mostly to the outside ski. And as that ski compressing into a shorter radius, physics dictates that the body slingshots out the other way (hopefully with the skis pushing behind your center of mass). The essential part of this for me is judging speed to reckon how much of an angle to stack the upper body into the turn, and of course how long to stay in the turn before the slingshot depending on how you balance back into flat skis.

Now this misses out some details of leg/boot geometry, or how much to get the skis behind you so as to avoid getting into backseat and whatnot, but the point here is that most all descriptions of how to carve instead involve movement patterns of some sort (eg flex this then that), which when I tried easily fell out of sync with what I wanted to do. For example, a key movement might be tipping the feet, but as I try to focus on that everything else is moving way too fast down even a flat corduroy blue run, and the slightest out of balance can lead to wobbly recoveries at best. But in contrast, when I focus on aligning the upper to lower body and compressing into the snow, everything else largely works itself out.

So the question here if is anyone else understands carving as I described it, and if so why it differs so much from orthodox curriculum (and presumably how most others approach it)? I'm not a natural skiing talent nor any kind of athlete. Also as a side question, now that I'm carving more or less I'm on the lookup for other folks who might be doing similar movements, and at least around here maybe at most 5-10% of the skiers stack/pressure with no rotary/skid? Would that typically be the case elsewhere or am I not looking for the right things?

Appreciate any guidance, thanks.
 

karlo

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It would help my understanding of your conceptualization if you could pick one of the turns in this video, then dissect it by time-of-video. Note, one can set YouTube to play in slow-no


However, based on my reading, it seems that you are simply looking at the reciprocal of what most are looking at, with you viewing it ski-centrically, and what the ski does to the body, rather than self-centric and what we do to the skis. Not sure I’m right though
 

graham418

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I may have misunderstood, but what you describe sounds to me more like Centre of Mass over your Base of Stability

ie Bob Barnes Infinity move

 

François Pugh

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You have described what you need to do in terms of the separate paths of skis and body to carve clean arc-2-arc turns with no smearing between turns at transition.

Most descriptions of carving focus on what the ski and snow is doing at the ski snow interface because that describes the difference between carving and not carving. You could be making short radius non-carved turns with separate paths as you described just as easily (by tipping less).

I suggest you try carving on green runs to refine it, and also continue to increase the tipping angle and decrease the turn radius until the apex, and then decrease the tipping angle. Play with the point at which you release the body (but not the skis) from the turn.
 
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agent00F

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It would help my understanding of your conceptualization if you could pick one of the turns in this video, then dissect it by time-of-video. Note, one can set YouTube to play in slow-no

However, based on my reading, it seems that you are simply looking at the reciprocal of what most are looking at, with you viewing it ski-centrically, and what the ski does to the body, rather than self-centric and what we do to the skis. Not sure I’m right though

The first thing I notice now (or now know) about vids of carving is just how low the body/hips get to the snow due to low angle of the knees (aka high edge angle), and that simply wasn't happening before I dynamically stacked/balance weight on the skis properly. At 31 to 32sec in the vid, his feet come around downhill, while his upper body takes the shorter line to intercept and stack right on top at the point where he wants start decreasing radius (ie build for the slingshot out at 33sec).

Your interpretation of the conceptualization is right in that most instructionals I saw focused on moving body parts a certain way, which I found difficult by itself at the speeds presented once you keep on edge and friction disappears, because slight errors can upset balance and send you off. When I started focusing on maintaining balance on the skis first, I was able to play around with a larger margin for error and make rapid progress.


I may have misunderstood, but what you describe sounds to me more like Centre of Mass over your Base of Stability

ie Bob Barnes Infinity move


Yes it's something like that in the abstract, but it can be difficult to grasp "center of mass" as practical advice because it moves around with different body position.


You have described what you need to do in terms of the separate paths of skis and body to carve clean arc-2-arc turns with no smearing between turns at transition.

Most descriptions of carving focus on what the ski and snow is doing at the ski snow interface because that describes the difference between carving and not carving. You could be making short radius non-carved turns with separate paths as you described just as easily (by tipping less).

I suggest you try carving on green runs to refine it, and also continue to increase the tipping angle and decrease the turn radius until the apex, and then decrease the tipping angle. Play with the point at which you release the body (but not the skis) from the turn.

It was surprising how quickly things developed once I could maintain balance through the method described, and experiment with subtleties like feeling the snow under the inside ski to enable a smoother transition as it turned into the outside edge. I basically went from hardly carving (inconsistent edging) to nearly all carving (staying on edges with hips low to the snow) down varied blue trails in a day, shooting off to each next turn more or less where desired. It was also pretty eye opening why this sort of skiing requires planning a turn or two in advance, because how quickly the upper body crosses over (to intercept the incoming skis) and thus how much pressure you can apply is determined by how much you projected it coming out of the last turn.

In hindsight at least for me it was harder to learn carving properly on greens before, perhaps because the speed was insufficient for body weight/momentum pressure to dominate and thus in a way "force" you to do the right thing. I could ski smooth lines slowly, but it felt nothing like this.
 
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Magi

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This year I've been working on figuring out how to carve, ie watching videos and reading descriptions, and then trying all assortment of methods out on the slope. Recently things started fitting together nicely, and I seem to be leaving two lines in the snow while enjoying the exhilaration of shooting out of turns.

However, as I thought about how that worked out, as if the goal were to teach it to someone else, the way I would describe its essential character is different than how it's taught/explained elsewhere, which is frankly puzzling to me.

In short, when I'm looking to carve, I see it as a balance management exercise (pressing into the snow) of the momentum and inertia of the body going across the slope. ...

Great summary of what you're doing. You're hitting the key part (pushing the skis into the snow) on the head, and that only happens when you're in balance.

While I'd extend your metaphor to encompass all of skiing as a balance exercise, I wouldn't have any qualms about using the above description with a student or a peer (and we do that pretty regularly where I hang out).

:thumb: :golfclap::beercheer:
 
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mdf

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A lot depends on what problem you are trying to fix. A lot of basic carving instruction is aimed at chronic heel pushers.
 

karlo

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When I started focusing on maintaining balance on the skis first, I was able to play around with a larger margin for error and make rapid progress.

Excellent. Note the five fundamentals,

the 5 fundamentals:
  • Control the relationship of the Center of Mass to the base of support to direct pressure along the length of the skis
  • Control pressure from ski to ski and direct pressure toward the outside ski
  • Control edge angles through a combination of inclination and angulation
  • Control the skis rotation (turning, pivoting, steering) with leg rotation, separate from the upper body
  • Regulate the magnitude of pressure created through ski/snow interaction.
Ref., http://www.thesnowpros.org/news/id/...ws-ice-power-finesse-5-fundamentals-of-skiing

Movement of body parts is not one of them. Instructional as that focus on that are simply tips on how to achieve balance and performance. Ultimately, achieving them is through feedback from what we feel, which can’t be conveyed so easily in an instructional. The best effort I’ve seen of that, are in instructional videos produced by Projected Productions instructional series by McGlashan and Lorenz, available for purchase on Vimeo.

But, let’s face it. Most people don’t know how to feel. However, that is trainable. Joan Heston, a well respected instructor and contributor to the profession,told me she didn’t start learning effectively until she developed feeling. Her coach/instructor refused to progress further until she developed that. She told me he waited until her count of the number of times she felt out of balance matched his observed count. It took training. Obviously, you can place out of that class.
 

geepers

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@agent00F , good way of thinking about it. It's a similar to various Bob Barnes descriptions, like the InfinityMove posted above and the medicine ball vid.


Be interested to know what type of snow (soft, hard packed) you are skiing on.

Also, have you seen any vid of your skiing? It's a great way to assess how the internal feelings of skiing match the reality.
 
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agent00F

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@agent00F : do you take ski lessons on the hill?

I started last year w/ a 3 lesson beginner package, but that was very basic pizza/fries/stem. For more context, before last couple weeks I mainly tried implement Lito Flores's instruction which made sense to someone looking for something simple: , he also has a followup vid for carving, but it's much the same about tipping over onto the onside ski and eventually "anticipation". With that, I could get down flatish blacks reasonably (and difficult blacks poorly), but now looking back always had some skidding/rotary when things got fast due to some initiation w/ upper body and not pressure/bend the skis enough consistently. Maybe occasionally I would compress onto that foot enough, but the resulting centrifugal acceleration would shoot the skis underneath me and often into the back seat, whereas now that "boost" is the essence of the turn through projecting the upper body to intercept and balance increasing forward of the rocketing skis. In a way it was hard to recognize what I was doing wrong when you rarely see anyone else ski like Paul Lorenz in the vid above, so if it's mostly on produced videos you start to believe it's showing off (like jumping off some steep line) when in fact that's simply how it looks when done right.

I took a private lesson 2/3 of the way through last season, and the instructor taught some pole plants plus moving the inside leg back which I now know helps get the body ahead of the soon to be outside ski. Frankly I still don't use the poles much because it never got intuitive and instead felt forced for me, but find that hand position takes care of itself so long as I'm balancing right. "Stable upper body" and "separation" and other body mechanic issues I had like using too much waist on right side instead of hip pivot also start melting away once I started seeing the upper body as just weight to dump onto the skis.

A lot depends on what problem you are trying to fix. A lot of basic carving instruction is aimed at chronic heel pushers.

Thinking about what karlo said about conceptualization, instructions like tipping and so on use the self/body as a reference. I would tip, and if didn't quite do it right the skis would lighten just enough to come off edge which is a bit scary at speed. Whereas now I'm instead moving the body above the line drawn by the skis if that makes sense, and thus know I'm pressuring them on edge (or not).

And thanks karlo for those refs. Something that helped was the session before the epiphany I really focused on "standing" on the snow (even while moving), and feeling how I pushed against it.

@agent00F , good way of thinking about it. It's a similar to various Bob Barnes descriptions, like the InfinityMove posted above and the medicine ball vid.


Be interested to know what type of snow (soft, hard packed) you are skiing on.

Also, have you seen any vid of your skiing? It's a great way to assess how the internal feelings of skiing match the reality.

Snow's been lackluster recently, so it's hardish in the morning and softens up through the day. Of course there's less leeway for errors in judging momentum (and therefore what angle to compress onto) when it's harder to dig into, but the idea/goal is still the same, just harder to implement.

I actually happened upon the infinitymove illustration before, and while it made sense, at least I couldn't see how to put it into action or make changes with. Maybe part of it is the illustration is 2d, and I couldn't visualize how to implement it in 3d.

I've never filmed myself but might give it a shot later. Honestly I had that self-reflective moment wondering if I was just deluding myself, but I don't believe so given how low I now get onto the snow so long as there's enough momentum to angle for high pressure. Another realization is that even though I'm keeping my legs/thighs much closer together than before, frequently touching or at least on that plane, the feet are often further apart due to the angle.
 

Josh Matta

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Balance on the outside skis has to happen before any tipping happens.

The OP's OP is exactly how I teach carving, balance over the outside ski, then tip the inside ski, as you take even more weight off of it.
 

Andy Mink

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Also, have you seen any vid of your skiing? It's a great way to assess how the internal feelings of skiing match the reality.
This. I *thought* I was much closer to the snow than I really was. If a picture is worth a thousand words, a video can wreck you in two turns!
 
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agent00F

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This. I *thought* I was much closer to the snow than I really was. If a picture is worth a thousand words, a video can wreck you in two turns!

I'm aware that more people claim they carve than can readily been seen on the slopes at least around here, but I'm getting leg angles where one knee is getting close to the other foot. However more so than this, regardless of how close hip and snow are exactly, the feel of launching out of corners I think should be familiar to everyone who's compressed the skis enough to significantly reduce their radius in the turn, then using that momentum to control/pressure the next turn. In fact that's a point I wish were emphasized in instructional material because seeking instead of avoiding this acceleration is what hones you into doing it right.

Also per that other thread about what makes "advanced" skiing, if it were a matter of technique I'd definitely say that approach of using momentum as a tool separates me now from the intermediate I was before. It makes for a different kind of skiing.
 

geepers

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I'm aware that more people claim they carve than can readily been seen on the slopes at least around here, but I'm getting leg angles where one knee is getting close to the other foot. However more so than this, regardless of how close hip and snow are exactly, the feel of launching out of corners I think should be familiar to everyone who's compressed the skis enough to significantly reduce their radius in the turn, then using that momentum to control/pressure the next turn. In fact that's a point I wish were emphasized in instructional material because seeking instead of avoiding this acceleration is what hones you into doing it right.

Also per that other thread about what makes "advanced" skiing, if it were a matter of technique I'd definitely say that approach of using momentum as a tool separates me now from the intermediate I was before. It makes for a different kind of skiing.

My own experience has been (and I suspect @Andy Mink may have had the same) that it feels like this:


Looks like....another :daffy: doing a show for the tow.

But your experience is your own. Go for it and pls post if you get any awesome vid. I for one could do with the stoke.
 
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agent00F

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My own experience has been (and I suspect @Andy Mink may have had the same) that it feels like this:


Looks like....another :daffy: doing a show for the tow.

But your experience is your own. Go for it and pls post if you get any awesome vid. I for one could do with the stoke.

Is that you in the video?
 
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agent00F

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Balance on the outside skis has to happen before any tipping happens.

The OP's OP is exactly how I teach carving, balance over the outside ski, then tip the inside ski, as you take even more weight off of it.

Sorry I missed your reply. The really interesting thing I found through managing momentum is that it can even reduce the amount of (conscientious) tipping needed to angulate. If you manage how quickly your weight comes up and down, the body seems to naturally create the useful angles. For example with a late release, instead of necessarily "untipping" late, if I slow the rate the body comes downwards in that axis toward the snow in the first part of the turn (which replaced much of the initial tipping), the rebound isn't as quick and the skis/edges naturally release later. Now I'm still probably using whatever muscles apply to tipping, but perhaps because they're working along with the body's motion I don't conscientiously tip much anymore.

How well everything came together when I started thinking about actively balancing with momentum was rather profound. But in a way I wish it wasn't, ie if it were taught instead of happened upon.
 

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Carving CAN involve high angles, but doesn't REQUIRE high angles. I got this beat into my head this season...
 

Doby Man

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While that may be true, high performance and dynamic carving does require high angles and equal tipping. The next thing to beat into your head ...
 
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