Directing Pressure Along the Length of the Skis

[Josh Matta]

its intentionally vague because of how opened end of a sport skiing is. Get back to the first post made by @Erik Timmerman where he just simply said "be in balance" this particular fundamental is simply talking about moving in such a way that you can pressure the area of the ski that needs to be pressures at the given time. For 95 percent of our lesson that means getting people to be somewhere in the center most of the time. For the other 5 percent is means getting people to move their COM to places most deem uncomfortable to get more performance or something different out of the ski.

In fact 3 of are literally just about pressure management/control.) Hell I even hate the word pressure especially for the "the direct pressure towards the outside ski" Direct balance or weight sure but direct pressure mis interrupted could lead to some instructor telling people to press on their outside foot or the case of this fore and aft fundamental people who think you press on the front of your boot, there are time where the front of your boot will press on you, but never a time where you should press on it.

I generally think of pressure management in all planes as my skis/boots pressing back on me. IE if I move forward my tips press on me, If I move back my tails press me, If I shorten a leg more than the other than the other leg presses on me, if extend my legs the skis tend to press on me, and conversely if I retract I lose pressure and lastly and not included in the 5 fundamentals(yet) is if I resist the rotation of my skis, the rotation of the skis again presses on me. Maybe that is included in "Control the skis’ rotation (turning, pivoting, steering) with leg rotation, separate from the upper body " but imo the motion I am talking about is foreign to almost all in the PSIA. (start another thread if you want to talk about it)

most people who have cliniced with me/been taught by me either knowingly or unknowingly have been taught to move around the hill by do the movements that lets the skis take them places, that can sound really passive but in practice its not, its just means that are skis take us places because of the external input we are providing them.

 

[JESinstr]

its intentionally vague because of how opened end of a sport skiing is. Get back to the first post made by @Erik Timmerman where he just simply said "be in balance" this particular fundamental is simply talking about moving in such a way that you can pressure the area of the ski that needs to be pressures at the given time. For 95 percent of our lesson that means getting people to be somewhere in the center most of the time. For the other 5 percent is means getting people to move their to places most deem uncomfortable to get more performance or something different out of the ski.

In fact 3 of are literally just about pressure management/control.) Hell I even hate the word pressure especially for the "the direct pressure towards the outside ski" Direct balance or weight sure but direct pressure mis interrupted could lead to some instructor telling people to press on their outside foot or the case of this fore and aft fundamental people who think you press on the front of your boot, there are time where the front of your boot will press on you, but never a time where you should press on it.

I generally think of pressure management in all planes as my skis/boots pressing back on me. IE if I move forward my tips press on me, If I move back my tails press me, If I shorten a leg more than the other than the other leg presses on me, if extend my legs the skis tend to press on me, and conversely if I retract I lose pressure and lastly and not included in the 5 fundamentals(yet) is if I resist the rotation of my skis, the rotation of the skis again presses on me. Maybe that is included in "Control the skis’ rotation (turning, pivoting, steering) with leg rotation, separate from the upper body " but imo the motion I am talking about is foreign to almost all in the PSIA. (start another thread if you want to talk about it)

most people who have cliniced with me/been taught by me either knowingly or unknowingly have been taught to move around the hill by do the movements that lets the skis take them places, that can sound really passive but in practice its not, its just means that are skis take us places because of the external input we are providing them.

I'm Sorry, Common sense is not allowed here.

So just to beat my drum one more time. People come to learn to ski with a balance methodology (BOS to COM relationship) that is based on reacting to the pull of gravity and is highly dynamic (locomotion) in nature. The brain is trained and is comfortable with the sense of moving while the highly dynamic action of the feet and legs propels one's mass here and there.

Now we secure the feet statically in their boots and attached them to the skis and we subject them to accelerating motion courtesy of the pull of gravity down the hill. I will admit that through "Forced" repetition, most studens will survive and eventually find a "sweet spot" of sorts for balance but they will hardly ever understand the fundamental import of this and worse yet, the lesson will probably be over by that time.

We know what the BOS for a skier is (compliments of @LiquidFeet )

So why is there not a recognized progression as part of "Preliminaries" to teach this. ? I would submit that you could eliminate a whole bunch of the "stupid" things used in preliminaries if we would just focus on teaching how to fundamentally balance on skis.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

It really pays off to get into and out of these threads quickly.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Despite Erik's thought, I just want to add I spend the first part of almost any lesson talking about and experimenting with movements to feel the various parts of the bottoms of their feet.

 

[Chris V.]

So why is there not a recognized progression as part of "Preliminaries" to teach this. ? I would submit that you could eliminate a whole bunch of the "stupid" things used in preliminaries if we would just focus on teaching how to fundamentally balance on skis.

I don't know that many of the preliminaries commonly taught are stupid, but there needs to be "balance" in how first movements are instilled. Watch any badly struggling beginner, or ineffective lesson, and you'll see a student being badly out of balance. It usually comes down to the student resisting moving with the skis, likely born of an unfounded fear of going over the handlebars.

 

[Chris V.]

I generally think of pressure management in all planes as my skis/boots pressing back on me.

Yes, I think that's truly "fundamental." AKA let the skis do the work of making the turns. AKA tip'em and rip'em.

 

[JESinstr]

I don't know that many of the preliminaries commonly taught are stupid, but there needs to be "balance" in how first movements are instilled. Watch any badly struggling beginner, or ineffective lesson, and you'll see a student being badly out of balance. It usually comes down to the student resisting moving with the skis, likely born of an unfounded fear of going over the handlebars.

Stupid may have been the wrong word. Ineffective may have been better.

Case in point, the single ski figure 8 drills. I used to be a big fan. Then I took the time to observe how much of the precious preliminary time was taken up with students either relying on poles for balance or allowing the arm extension that poles inflict to deter balance. I also observed students spending more time balancing over the boot leg than the ski leg.

Regarding your last sentence. Consider that it is actually the lack of appropriate and targeted tension that allows negative biomechanical reactions to heretofore unfamiliar situations like accelerating down an incline.

 

[Chris V.]

I agree with all you say, JESinstr. Concerning the one ski figure 8 drill, I would say that the key is to give each student good feedback, and make sure that the drill is being done by truly balancing over the ski. The student should demonstrate the ability to glide. Like with any drill, there's a way to do it right, and a whole bunch of ways to do it wrong. In a big group lesson, it's tough to give adequate individual feedback without coming across like a marine corps drill sergeant, but that's one's job as a professional.

It's just in the past couple of years that I'm coming to fully appreciate the importance of appropriate and targeted tension, and to recognize how a lack of focus on this hampers many ski school lessons. This is a subject on which instructor training programs could be beefed up, IMNSHO.

 

[Mike King]

What’s the objective? usually balance. And what do we balance against? The base of support. Why do we control the relationship between the center of mass and the base of support? Usually to be in a state of balance...

 

[James]

Is one in balance while falling?

 

[LiquidFeet]

One has lost one's base of support when falling. It went where it wasn't supposed to go, relative to the CoM.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I agree with all you say, JESinstr. Concerning the one ski figure 8 drill, I would say that the key is to give each student good feedback, and make sure that the drill is being done by truly balancing over the ski. The student should demonstrate the ability to glide. Like with any drill, there's a way to do it right, and a whole bunch of ways to do it wrong. In a big group lesson, it's tough to give adequate individual feedback without coming across like a marine corps drill sergeant, but that's one's job as a professional.

You beat me to it. If the figure-8 is just an uncontrolled free for all, it has little value. It is the coaches job to coach it. If you aren't going to coach it, maybe it is best to skip it.

 

[karlo]

Why do we control the relationship between the center of mass and the base of support? Usually to be in a state of balance...

I get it. And, the relationship, to achieve balance, changes depending on what one wants to do! Like going to higher edge angle, one might have to angulate more.

One has lost one's base of support when falling. It went where it wasn't supposed to go, relative to the CoM.

Unless that’s where one wants it to go, albeit with the COM in the right place in relationship with BOS at landing?

 

[Noodler]

This discussion is starting to go the way of Tom Gellie's "toppling" principle.

 

[James]

One has lost one's base of support when falling. It went where it wasn't supposed to go, relative to the CoM.

Unless that’s where one wants it to go, albeit with the COM in the right place in relationship with BOS at landing?

Yes. Basically my point.
This is the big thing people fear in skiing. Everybody has their point. Not much for a beginner, 40, 45 +degrees, or less but with consequences for a skilled skier.

We get used to it off skis once we learn how to walk and run. What about going down stairs? Rehabbing injuries can remind one it’s scary and we get conditioned to it over time. If it’s successful.

Running is more obvious than walking. Falling:

If we compare percentage of time spent in a “balanced” state in the turn, then this skiing:

Likely spends a higher percentage in a “balanced” state than this skiing;


But, Mikaela’s in the right spot when she needs to be.

 

[JESinstr]

Good points and I like where this is going... However my rhetorical question is: With both your examples depicting the "Carving balanced" state why aren't we teaching it from the get go? The wedge configuration sets up an opportunity to develop the needed edging and pressure skills. So why do we insist that students try to "squash" a bug or something to that effect in order to proactively induce rotary? Rotary is a failure to carve ...not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[karlo]

Yes. Basically my point.
This is the big thing people fear in skiing. Everybody has their point. Not much for a beginner, 40, 45 +degrees, or less but with consequences for a skilled skier.

We get used to it off skis once we learn how to walk and run. What about going down stairs? Rehabbing injuries can remind one it’s scary and we get conditioned to it over time. If it’s successful.

Running is more obvious than walking. Falling:
View attachment 86536

If we compare percentage of time spent in a “balanced” state in the turn, then this skiing:

Likely spends a higher percentage in a “balanced” state than this skiing;


But, Mikaela’s in the right spot when she needs to be.

I don’t know about that. The recreational skier has that one hop in the air; no BOS. Whereas, MS appears to be in contact w snow 110% of the time. But, I get your point. In transition, MS is very light.

 

[geepers]

I don’t know about that. The recreational skier has that one hop in the air; no BOS. Whereas, MS appears to be in contact w snow 110% of the time. But, I get your point. In transition, MS is very light.

BoS is not much needed until we wish to use ground reaction force to either stop us sinking into the snow or redirect our CoM.

In any event, was wondering if you considered you got an answer to your original question? If answered, how will it affect what you are trying to do when skiing?

 

[karlo]

In any event, was wondering if you considered you got an answer to your original question? If answered, how will it affect what you are trying to do when skiing?

I have AN answer. I'm not sure everyone would agree with it, but I have a clear model in my head as to both this fundamental and how it relates to the others.

How will I use it?

1. Having the model in my mind and understanding, I will better remember what this fundamental is for PSIA exams, or when quizzed by a trainer.

2. It will better inform my selection of tasks or drills when working with a student; plus, it will raise my awareness of what to look for when a student is performing a task, comparing outcome with my expectations.

3. It will help me develop my MA skills and make taking MA201, which i have registered for, more productive.

 

[karlo]

Rotary is a failure to carve ...not that there's anything wrong with that

No, nothing wrong at all. But, to carve without rotary, of the legs of course, that would be problematic.