Detune skis shovel and tail? or not?

[Tony S]

As long as their is no hanging burr they dont need any detuning.

If there's a hanging burr, they need deburring, not detuning.

In my experience, when shops say detuning, they mean detuning. And by detuning they mean preventing customer complaints. They're running a business after all, and the customer is always right. Unfortunately the customer has no interest in making a real turn.

You guys all have shops that are very good to begin with. Plus the staff know you as soon as you walk in the door. They recognize your names on work tickets.

If you just walk into some random shop in some random town and ask them to tune your skis with no further input or discussion, chances are better than even that they will dull back even the working section of your edges several inches "to keep you from catching an edge." Yes, even in 2018.

 

[Sibhusky]

Yes, twice I've had shops detune back six or seven INCHES in spite of the fact I've given them structure and/or bevel directions. Did they think that they should be doing something I didn't tell them to do with that kind of specifics? They even argued about what I would like when I brought them back in pissed. My skis haven't seen a shop in several years now. It's why I started doing my own structuring. Three bad experiences in a row. (Third was a serrated edge as it was pulled off the grinder or whatever. This was way beyond any hanging burr.)

 

[Scruffy]

A shop should NEVER detune your skis for you. If you want to detune them you can easily do it to your own preference. They should do no harm!

 

[Tony S]

@FreddieG has struck a nerve. Maybe that was by design?

 

[James]

In my opinion if you use your slalom / frontside ripper as your all mountain ski you don’t want your edges razor sharp from tip to tail, especially in the bumps.

Bumpers aren't particularly good at tuning. But definitely the non contact, bent up area should be rounded so it can't bite. Same with the very end of the tails. No different than normal. I kerp everything else the same, no dulling.

It's personal preference. Some people do, some people don't, even on WC tour. Personally I have my skis sharp from tip to tail, but when I do skis for friends, I detune tips and tail for most of them, unless I know they really know how to ski. If you finish edges real sharp, it's actually better (safer) for not so great skier to have tips and tails detuned as ski hooks up harder, and unintended hook ups are not really all that pleasant.

Does this beating goes also for those who are not native english speakers? If yes, then I'm happy I'm still in quite good shape and can still run pretty fast I honestly didn't know there's more "detuning" options I though detuning goes for basically using something like gumistone to make first and last 10cm or so of ski a bit less sharp. I guess some do it differently then

See, this is very different then what happens here at many shops. Detuning they do with a diamond stone, sometimes even a file. I've skied someone's Kastle Mx 83's that were so "detuned" for say 5cm of contact that no sharpening or base grinding would be able to bring them back. The ski was only 173cm.

You'd never do anything like that. It would give you nightmares.

Know anything about world cup mogul skier's tuning?

 

[BGreen]

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen.
Just got my skis tuned and waxed at the local shop, and the tech told me that he detuned the shovel and tails.
The question is: why is that done?
SkiS are brand new Stockli Laser AX.
Thank you for reading and answering.

So they don’t catch. I round over tip and tail and I detune tip and tails to feather in the sharpness. I always do this unless the skier or the conditions dictate otherwise. I also always remove the burr unless I’m told to leave it, though with certain brands or certain conditions I’ll leave it. You have to decide where you want the balance between quick and smooth engagement (base bevel) and edge hold speed release. I tend to lean toward a smooth edge over absolute sharpness most of the time. Keep in mind there is no absolute definition of sharpness. What is sharp to someone who skis bumps and smooth groomed runs will be dangerously dull to someone who lives on a watered or injected surface. One size does not fit all. Telling a shop you want specific bevel angles tells them nothing beyond that specific instruction.

 

[Primoz]

See, this is very different then what happens here at many shops. Detuning they do with a diamond stone, sometimes even a file. I've skied someone's Kastle Mx 83's that were so "detuned" for say 5cm of contact that no sharpening or base grinding would be able to bring them back. The ski was only 173cm.
Know anything about world cup mogul skier's tuning?

Yeah I noticed after @oldschoolskier posted, that we were probably talking about two different things, or at least 2 different ways of doing it. For me "detuning" (I know I shouldn't say that as @oldschoolskier said he will forgive me this only once ) was more like taking sharpness away from first and last few cm of ski, not changing base angle so drastically. Now I learned, that for some detuning actually means changing base level, or actually literally removing any function of edge (also for anytime in future).
As far as moguls go, no I have absolutely no idea about tuning skis for that, but I do believe it's quite a bit different then tuning skis for SL/GS/SG/DH.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Something else that I will add that has changed the tuning game dramatically is tip and tail rise (or rocker depending on the extent) combined with side cut shape. Top end race skis now have this (ie Rossi/Dynastar). While haven’t skied the race versions, I have skied some Rossi all around 78 (I believe) listed as an intermediate/advanced ski. I did the tune to a 3/1 and was surprised at how well they hold, along with how progressive and smooth the edge hold came on and how the radius tightened as they edged over while still providing race ski type grip (up until that point any ski at this level would have been a put off for me as the grip would be hit and miss, not to mention all sorts of other negative draw backs). This is likely the first non race ski I would buy as its limits just exceed my ability.

The only draw back a slightly slower initial response (easily overcome with a slight timing change) while providing a touch (actually a lot) of forgiveness for skier error or terrain conditions.

Think of it as you roll onto the edge, the ski length increase and radius decreases as the edges engage.

@Primoz this season try a zero detune (definitely remove the hanging burr), let the ski design do what’s it supposed to. Ski them for a week and then try an older ski set/tune. You’ll be surprised at how much you’ve been missing. I suspect you ski very neutral anyway, so don’t over ski the zero detune, give it just enough input. Way more relaxed skiing and when you crank it up to rip it, they’ll hold like no tomorrow.

For those that don’t know my preferred ski is a FIS GS ski (has been for decades) in which I run an aggressive 4/0.5 tune in all conditions. I have NO edge catch issues in any snow/terrain conditions. That said those that try my skis generally learn they can bite you if you have sloppy technique (at any speed might I add, worst of all they usually do it ultra low unsuspecting speeds like when getting off the lift).

 

[Primoz]

@oldschoolskier there was misunderstanding My skis are always sharp from tip to tail. I want them to grab when needed to, even if for SL skis, that means right away when not perfectly flat as base angle is flat 0, but for GS I have some more ground to play (nowadays it's 0.5). I was always used to have skis sharp from tip to tail, and for myself I never used any sort of "detuning". Even pow skis are sharp from beginning of edge till end of edge (probably too sharp for pow skis but extra sharpness is never problem, too little can be sometimes ). If I'm on real ice (injected snow), I actually have some extra "burr" done with ceramic stone.
This "taking some sharpness away" on tip and tail is something I do for friend for which I know they don't ski all that well and hooky skis might not be best option (even though I go with your "you should learn how to ski to avoid thumbe" theory ).

 

[Wilhelmson]

I sometimes detune my kids' skis if there's fresh snow on top of ice. Thinking of rockered skis, if the effective edge is already shorter and then you dull the contact points by a couple cm, how much edge are you leaving to grab?

 

[ski otter 2]

I don't detune. EVER. And I carry on about it the rare times I drop skis off. (Basically I tell them not to deburr or detune the least little bit, I'll do it.) What I do, though, is slightly increase the base bevel forward of the contract point. I still use the same base bevel guide, but I bear down a bit beyond that point to pull it infinitesimally away from the snow. The edge is still sharp up there, but it doesn't engage suddenly on some surface irregularity.

And of course I use a gummy to deburr. But that's lightly and down the whole edge.

If a shop "detuned" my AXes (and that ski in particular, among others) without my asking for it, or without asking me first, I'd never go there again, and I'd ask for a refund. Incompetent.

On detuning: I run my skis sharp from tip to tail, often 1/2 for powder skis and most all mountain skis, .7/3, usually, for race or frontside or strong, precision edge skis. I never detune, in the sense of dulling the edge. I incrementally increase the base bevel, at first (and hopefully it's enough) in the way @Sibhusky describes. In the rare times that doesn't do it, I gradually add more base bevel past the contact points, then test, until that does it. It's easy to tell, almost always.

Try it. It works, a very high percentage of the time just the amount of that first attempt. Occasionally, a bit more.

That way, as you lay the ski over, there is always a sharp edge there to increase the effective edge when it will be good. FIS race ski or fat powder charger - this works. (Not that I've ever had to increase base bevel on a race ski, actually - just run it sharp.)


Certain skis I still really like have a built in hookiness as part of the design - at least for a person of my weight, height and ski dynamics/style in certain situations. These can benefit from increasing that base bevel just beyond or at the contact points for an inch or so forward, often.

 

[Tony S]

Don't bump this thread. It makes my blood pressure go up every time.

 

[tball]

Don't bump this thread. It makes my blood pressure go up every time.

Whatever you do, don't watch this video.


Even this is more than I'll typically do.


Nobody should take my tuning advice. It's just what I do and most likely wrong for most. I ski relatively soft off-piste snow and bumps most of the time and rarely have my skis tuned. I've skied a factory tune for over a year — more than once.

 

[Ken_R]

Don't bump this thread. It makes my blood pressure go up every time.

 

[CS2-6]

Know anything about world cup mogul skier's tuning?

No I don't, but I'm guessing an aggressive base bevel, mild side bevel, and tips/shovels detuned a significant distance toward the bindings and tails detuned a moderate distance toward the bindings?

 

[ski otter 2]

@tball quote from the slush/crud thread:

"Or maybe the tips and tails were just a bit too sharp. That was the case with my 8.5 Ti's and they skied better after I dulled them a bit. They were tuned by the same guy at the same time. My Navigators that were also tuned at the same time didn't need anything of the sort. I think it depends on the skier and the ski.

Detuning might be too strong, more making not so sharp at the tips and tails.

I'm the furthest dude ever from a tuning expert (spoiled with CO snow), but I've done this for years after having my skis tuned. Try them, then dull a short amount of the tips and tails a bit to taste."

I really agree with this. Like you said, the skier style and the ski design determine what to do with tuning a particular ski, to me no general rule. In your case, in your past videos I notice you use a lot of to me expert pivoting/slarving in your bump turns - and focus on bumps, as you said - so both those things lend themselves to your dulling the tips and tails slightly. In my case, I've always used a lot of carve even in the bumps. So I like a ski for bumps that's flexy, soft tails (to not accelerate me out of the turns) and sharp edged, to carve and shift from edge to edge on just the part of the bump I want to be on. Plus I'm less and less on bumps due to age. So different tune, as a result.

The ski I had that pivoted well w/o carve edge emphasis was the Kastle FX 84, maybe first generation - a ski that required an extra effort to carve on instead of pivot. It doesn't get used much now, I'm afraid.

* * * * *

On stuff that corrects hookiness or catchiness in a ski, without having to dull (gummy stone?) or detune the edges:

This next is a repeat for @tball, since what he said about his wider skis, the Sickles, after getting them tuned, suggests these steps, to me, for starters, on correcting edge difficulties turning - catchiness, problems releasing, or hookiness - and getting a good edge/flex turn from a ski, the way it was meant to be.

The first thing to check is for base flatness. You want it flat or maybe a bit plastic high towards the tip and tail. Next, check the base edge bevel: it's great if it's consistent front to back, or if it's slightly flatter in the middle and more sloping at the tips and tails (racers do that too). But it's not cool if the base bevel is more sloped in the middle and flatter tip and tail: this in effect creates a "stuck" feeling, at least - a ski that feels rail high, and hooky, often; and sometimes is unskiable. So if a ski feels heavy or longer, or stuck in a straight line, catchy or hooky, like it won't release well to turn and wants to ride straight or at least is stuck in one edge turn shape, then the ski may well be rail high, or have a reverse or inconsistent base bevel. If so, just wack it with a dedicated base bevel tool and file/stone, especially at the tips and tails.

(The rest of this is more tuning tech, so skip if that's not of interest. If anyone has improvements to what I'm doing, please feel free to pitch right in!)

* * * * *

There may be better or alternate ways of doing this, but,,,,,,,,

For me, there is a trick towards the end of making a sharp edge burr free and not catchy or hooky, consistently (besides great ski selection, which comes first, and increasing base bevel fore and aft). It involves using an oddball 1500 diamond file, the finest grain ski file in that diamond file series, I gather: ("So who needs that thing?" I'd often wondered).

https://www.artechski.com/diaface-moon-flex-diamond-pocket-files/

I'm using standard methods to start with: just as I'd slightly increase the base bevel just in front of the contact points IF the ski actually is grabby and needs that (instead of dulling or detuning), so what I do as a last step especially, replaces the need to run a gummy stone along the edge as a final step, at least.

First, after skiing, I carefully de-burr both bevels with minimal metal removal (first edge, then base), then check for hanging burrs with my fingernail, both the edge and base sides. For minimum metal removal, I don't usually use the standard progression of finer and finer diamond files (once the edges are set) unless the damage is extreme. Instead, I often use readily available fine and/or extra fine ceramic stones, 600 (brown) and 1200 (white), in the standard edge bevel and base bevel guides. The white is the same material, I think, as a number of kitchen knife sharpeners out there, except flat and shaped like a thin ski edge stone. Usually, that 1200 alone, will take off burrs on the base bevel side, where I most want to minimize metal removal (so as to in turn minimize the number of base flattening routines I have to go through (which I also do myself). BUT, in my experience, these ceramic stones soften the metal edge, and tend to leave an edge burr much of the time - even the 1200.

https://www.artechski.com/stone-sharpening-tools/

So, next I'll do a last single alternating pass with the white stone on first the edge bevel, then the base bevel. I'll check this, to make sure I've still got at most just a mild edge burr (at this point, potentially a slight horizontal burr from the last base bevel pass), and then I'll use a 1500 diamond file, perhaps the finest grain in the diamond ski file series: usually, again, just a single pass, sometimes two alternating, on first the edge bevel, then the base bevel, and - presto - edge burrs (that one can detect) are mostly gone! The last step, for me, is to fingernail check and spot tune by hand with the 1500 file, both the edge and side tunes. Often, there are a few inch to two inch sections of slight burr on one edge bevel or base bevel or the other, just here and there. I don't use a guide for this, just feel by hand.

Often, after years of doing this stuff, I'll just do the stoning or diamond file work by hand, no guides. It's quicker, and in some ways more accurate, with experience - especially if used in conjunction with the file guides at times. (There are pros and cons to this, like most everything.)

Have you ever wondered what that 1500 diamond file they sell in race ski supply shops was for? Well, this is one answer.

https://www.tognar.com/ski-visions-tuning-stick/

(Note: if I'm doing a lot of skis, then I'd switch from using a fingernail to feel for burrs, to using a Ski Visions tuning stick tool to do the same thing: with practice, it works almost as well as one's fingernail, without the potential wear and tear on the nails.)

 

[Tony S]

https://www.tognar.com/ski-visions-tuning-stick/

(Note: if I'm doing a lot of skis, then I'd switch from using a fingernail to feel for burrs, to using a Ski Visions tuning stick tool to do the same thing: with practice, it works almost as well as one's fingernail, without the potential wear and tear on the nails.)

Interesting. Never heard of this.

 

[mdf]

Interesting. Never heard of this.

A give-away ball point pen works too.

 

[James]

A give-away ball point pen works too.

Yeah anything to react to the burr hanging down. Smooth plastic. Sharpie body works well.

 

[François Pugh]

Maybe instead of a detune consider a higher base angle, and maybe also consider shorter skis.