Detune skis shovel and tail? or not?

[FreddieG]

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen.
Just got my skis tuned and waxed at the local shop, and the tech told me that he detuned the shovel and tails.
The question is: why is that done?
SkiS are brand new Stockli Laser AX.
Thank you for reading and answering.

 

[CalG]

Some skiers benefit from a tip and tail detune (dulling of the edge) by the enhanced Predictability of edge grip in those regions.

Sharp tip to tail is presently popular, but can lend it's self to an eagerness to hook up at the tip, or a reluctance to let loose at the tail.
Some people who ski find these qualities annoying to 'dangerous'.

I like my ski edges sharp at all regions that come in contact with the snow. but dull the first and last inch or two to protect flesh and gloves when handling the ski.

 

[Ken_R]

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen.
Just got my skis tuned and waxed at the local shop, and the tech told me that he detuned the shovel and tails.
The question is: why is that done?
SkiS are brand new Stockli Laser AX.
Thank you for reading and answering.

No, unless you ski funky "3d" snow with those skis. I would leave them as tuned. Sweet skis btw!

 

[Steve]

It really depends on how he defines tip and tail and how he defines detune.
If he really dulled the edges beyond the contact point with the snow - that's really detuning the tip and tail, and if you have any decent skills you don't want that.

If however he only softened the edges a little and only at the very tip and tail (just a few inches or less) then it's probably fine.

The only time I detune skis is for a very low level skiers on really sharp skis.
Those Laser AX's are great skis and I wouldn't ever want to lose even a few inches of their greatness.
I tune my Stockli Laser SC's as sharp as I can the entire edge.

 

[François Pugh]

Sharp ski edges do what they are designed to do, hook up and turn when they are tipped to interact with the snow. Some folk can't handle their skies doing what they are told to do that precisely and immediately. It's like they have a car that begins a turn as soon as they turn the steering wheel a tiny bit. They can't control their steering wheel that precisely, and would prefer that the car not turn until they have that wheel cranked a quarter turn.

I am of the opinion that skis should be razor sharp tip to tail. Unless you have a physical disability or boots that don't fit, you should be able to learn to control sharp skis.

Some folk are on the wrong skis for them, and prefer making the skis less responsive over changing to a more easy-going ski.

 

[Viking9]

In my opinion if you use your slalom / frontside ripper as your all mountain ski you don’t want your edges razor sharp from tip to tail, especially in the bumps.

 

[Scrundy]

I never detune the tails. As a matter of fact I love the tails of Stöckli skis. If you want to monkey with the tips go for it, that’s preference or ski conditions.

 

[Primoz]

It's personal preference. Some people do, some people don't, even on WC tour. Personally I have my skis sharp from tip to tail, but when I do skis for friends, I detune tips and tail for most of them, unless I know they really know how to ski. If you finish edges real sharp, it's actually better (safer) for not so great skier to have tips and tails detuned as ski hooks up harder, and unintended hook ups are not really all that pleasant.

 

[oldschoolskier]

F&*K NNOOO!!!!!!!

Do a search on this site and you will see several threads on this, unfortunately.

Detuning was introduced many years ago on straight skis to soften turn initiation (make skis less hooky. When it started, side bevels had just started 30’ish years ago and I unfortunately tried it, quickly discovering that any benefit of the side bevel was negated by the detune on ice. Additionally on straight skis not detuning was ok. The advent of shaped ski caused detuning to surface again but with the same negative aspects. Smart skiers the a better solution was the start of the Base Bevel.

This allowed razor edges, great ice hold and skis that allow some skier error without trying to kill you. Side/base angles are as follows:

3/1 most common good all around set up (what set for almost everyone else)
4/0.5 for very aggressive setups (what I ski every day),
2/2 (generally park riders) as the edge gets rounded anyway riding rails so who cares.

Now how bad is detuning on your skis, if it been done aggressively, I’d be insisting on new skis as the life has been shorten excessively and you didn’t ask for it, if it’s minor getting them retuned at a proper ski shop and never darken the first shop again (after a refund has been given), if its very minor ski them till a tune is required and visit a different shop that has a tuner that knows not to detune.

This said, deburring is something different, this depending on how you sharpen is required to remove random razor blade edges caused during sharpening, which will/can cause the ski to be unskiable. BTW some extreme skiers play with intentional burrs to achieve even better ice hold, this sort of falls into true extreme as it can be a bit hit and miss depending on how and by whom it’s done. I wouldn’t as I find the extreme side base combinations more than enough, without any of the potential negative drawbacks of doing this.

So, repeat after me several times:

Detuning Bad!

Now if the industry could just beat any tuners (professional or not) that use detuning (including the word detuning) in their course of tuning skis or talking to their customers..

***side note: some tuners mistakenly use detune to mean deburr, but several good beatings should cure this.

 

[Primoz]

***side note: some tuners mistakenly use detune to mean deburr, but several good beatings should cure this.

Does this beating goes also for those who are not native english speakers? If yes, then I'm happy I'm still in quite good shape and can still run pretty fast I honestly didn't know there's more "detuning" options I though detuning goes for basically using something like gumistone to make first and last 10cm or so of ski a bit less sharp. I guess some do it differently then

 

[jmeb]

Despite many objections here, many world class ski makers detune the tips and tails of their skis , and believe they ski better that way. (And no, these ski manufacturers do not mean deburr, and no they aren’t bad skiers.) Of course it depends on the ski, the snow, and the skier. But the categorical “no it’s only for poor skiers” s is just as absolutely misguided in my opinion.

On a ski like the Lazer AX your unlikely to need such. I’d put a gummy Stone in my pocket for the first days skiing them, especially in fresher snow, and slowly detune if you feel hookiness or grabiness you don’t like.

 

[François Pugh]

Detuning is not just for folks who can't ski. It's also for folks who bought a 13 m radius sl ski and want to use it in moguls instead of carve 2g turns on hardback. It's also for folks who have 11 m cheater sl skis and want to ski them fast in deep snow or crud instead of carve small turns at low speeds.

 

[DanoT]

Back when skis were straight and edges were 0/0, I would de tune the first 6 inches of edge starting at the tip, with a file.
With shaped skis, in the west I get skis sharpened to 1/2. In the east, I grew up there and won't ski there anymore but if I did it would be 1/3.
Any shop in the west, when I have inquired about the standard tune if the customer doesn't specify: they get 1/1. Makes sense as most of the skiing public are less than 10 days a year intermediates. Still a good ski tech should ask for the customer's edge angle preference. I don't know if they do ask or not because I always give written instructions, taped to the ski.

Edit: And no de tuning the edges on shaped, rockered skis for me.

 

[Sibhusky]

I don't detune. EVER. And I carry on about it the rare times I drop skis off. (Basically I tell them not to deburr or detune the least little bit, I'll do it.) What I do, though, is slightly increase the base bevel forward of the contract point. I still use the same base bevel guide, but I bear down a bit beyond that point to pull it infinitesimally away from the snow. The edge is still sharp up there, but it doesn't engage suddenly on some surface irregularity.

And of course I use a gummy to deburr. But that's lightly and down the whole edge.

 

[Jacques]

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen.
Just got my skis tuned and waxed at the local shop, and the tech told me that he detuned the shovel and tails.
The question is: why is that done?
SkiS are brand new Stockli Laser AX.
Thank you for reading and answering.

I will de-tune skis. Only under two conditions. (or places)
One would be in the tip shovel. (and tail if twin tips) This would be where the tips and tails leave the surface of a solid surface.
The other would be where the sidecut of a ski goes into reverse. This would not apply to a ski that has total reverse sidecut. (see One)
Some skis have a long reverse cut area, some have very very little.
Your skis in question have little to no reverse sidecut. For those I would use One. The other is basically non-existent on those skis, but there is a little.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Does this beating goes also for those who are not native english speakers? If yes, then I'm happy I'm still in quite good shape and can still run pretty fast I honestly didn't know there's more "detuning" options I though detuning goes for basically using something like gumistone to make first and last 10cm or so of ski a bit less sharp. I guess some do it differently then

I think you do it out of habit because you are old (school) and call it detune for the same reason, so I’ll forgive you this one and only time (plus you have more inside knowledge about what’s going on the circuit than I do) .

On a more sober note, I’ve stopped deburring with gummy stones years ago and focused on not tuning a burr onto the ski in the first place. Can be done just takes work. As to skiers having issues, it is a quick cure self inflicted (body slammed caused by an edge catch) cure to ski correctly so as to not ski to catch edges. Though I must admit some just don’t get it, and get slammed repeatedly. Who am I to argue as I feel they may like it .

 

[graham418]

I was always under the impression that defining tip a and tails was only back in the day, with straight skis. Now we want tip and tail to engage as we edge.
I have heard something about radial tuning somewhere here, which sounds like the modern day equivalent. The consensus with that was mostly a bad idea.

 

[MurrayH77]

Interesting topic!

I'm with graham418. When i had 200cm+ of stiff ski, i detuned the outside front edge in particular to slow down the very common "caught the outside edge" glitch.
With shorter skis(like 175s) i generally like sharp tip to tail (& don't have a right & left ski). Also i borrowed a friends racing ski one time that was shop tuned, and one of his skis i thought was over-hooky on the front: So that's only twice since shaped skis, say 1999, that i personally wanted front tip detuning.

That being said, i also use Stockli Laser AX & can imagine ski conditions & trails, where i might want more of an all-mountain ski, such that a little detune tip & tail might seem beneficial.

 

[Tony S]

I'm basically in the "Oh, the humanity!" camp on this, given the brand, model, newness, and intended use of the ski.

 

[Josh Matta]

As long as their is no hanging burr they dont need any detuning.