Descents

[cantunamunch]

It's a dangerous sport no matter what. Minimize the risk is something tangible.

The only place risk-minimal bike geo - and sizing, let's not pretend pros don't ride undersize frames for aero reasons - is likely to come from is ... ebikes. Not kidding. E-bikes will do risk minimization ages before analog bikes do - and the proof is no one sane would ride a motorcycle with current aero road bike geo.

Ultimately the riders have to make good choices too.

Like what? Descent turn practice (100 turns/week like I posted in that video ~3 seasons ago?)

By the time most civilians are on 8-13% road descents, they're coasting in a straight line, not pedaling. They are hugging the brake lever for dear life. If they're smart, they're behind the saddle. But the only way they'll feel safe to even try downhill turns, let alone hairpins, at those grades is if they're on post-2012 MTB geo.

Even the UCI regs. I know everyone likes to dump on the UCI but really, what's the point of the TT bike? Make them do TT on their normal bike. Why was the 14.7 lbs limit so heavily criticised? Equal equipment, where's the advantage? Build a "box" the bike has to fit into and use it for every stage.

Mostly agreed. Politics sucks.

 

[scott43]

You know I was looking at some of their bikes... 250mm of seat post out and bars slammed. Thinking to myself, I couldn't have ridden that in my prime. But yeah.. Aero is a big deal.

As for descents, go slower. I am trying to reconcile this with F1 where a lot of the safety improvements came from equipment. Which you can't really do in cycling. Can you neutralize a descent? I get it's thrilling to watch.. Maybe that NASCAR let's blow some stuff up mentality. I don't know how you do that. They have more trust in disc brakes than I have as well. I'm pretty sure you're buying new pads after a few of those descents..

 

[cantunamunch]

You know I was looking at some of their bikes... 250mm of seat post out and bars slammed. Thinking to myself, I couldn't have ridden that in my prime. But yeah.. Aero is a big deal.

There's a 17-turn paved wiggle near work:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

If theoretical-you on theoretical-your bike can't do that descent at 15-20mph without unclipping or going off the pavement, how in the name of all flying monkeys do you expect to maneuver at 40-50-60 on steeper grades with traffic?

And yet no one wants to go practice

I am trying to reconcile this with F1 where a lot of the safety improvements came from equipment.

Yup.

Can you neutralize a descent?

Like Gran Fondo rules?

They have more trust in disc brakes than I have as well. I'm pretty sure you're buying new pads after a few of those descents..

No doubt.

 

[scott43]

Like basically no passing on the descent. Easy enough to enforce. But the spectacle!! I dunno.. just throwing it out there..

 

[markojp]

Crafting stages to have uphill finishes is how. Stages that finish in descents or descents-to-flat-TT are begging for descent wars. We proved that back in the Contador/Nibali/Froome generation of riders.

But if you're trying to make the point that there isn't sufficient political will to execute, I won't disagree.

I do offer the technical thought that it might be time to resurrect the endurance bike as a better descender than the aero crit bike.

Civilians descending 2000+ vertical might not want Mader's Reacto Disc Team or Pidcock's Dogma Disc. And yes, I am aware that my suggestion is politically impossible to execute. I mean it's not like there was any political will to redesign TT bikes after Chloe Dygert's vicious tank slapper high side - and that was well documented on video.

... because Civilians have the same skills and incentives as the pros? Nope. Give civilians the same kit, and they'll certainly be slower, brake more, etc... as most don't have the same tolerance for risk, not to mention skills. The tool really isn't the issue. It's a race in a very risky sport. We could be talking about a sprint finish fatality in the same light in different circumstances. Sprint fencing has changed, and for significantly better, but so long as there are winners, losers, and paid incentives/salaries, risk taking is a constant in the competitive equation.

 

[cantunamunch]

... because Civilians have the same skills and incentives as the pros? Nope. Give civilians the same kit, and they'll certainly be slower, brake more, etc... as most don't have the same tolerance for risk, not to mention skills.

Exactly. You confirm my point.

The tool really isn't the issue.

Because we haven't made it one

 

[scott43]

... because Civilians have the same skills and incentives as the pros? Nope. Give civilians the same kit, and they'll certainly be slower, brake more, etc... as most don't have the same tolerance for risk, not to mention skills. The tool really isn't the issue. It's a race in a very risky sport. We could be talking about a sprint finish fatality in the same light in different circumstances. Sprint fencing has changed, and for significantly better, but so long as there are winners, losers, and paid incentives/salaries, risk taking is a constant in the competitive equation.

I hear ya but really just saying it's dangerous end of story is a little defeatist. Again like F1, Jackie Stewart endured a fair amount of ridicule for suggesting a safer work environment but eventually that changed. Remember the halo ridicule? I get it's dangerous but there can be a conversation to try to improve safety. As I always say, self sealing fuel cells were available in 1939 but F1 didn't make them mandatory until the 70s.

 

[markojp]

I guess until they have determined, regular routes that make downhill mountain stage race infrastructure feasible, it'll be tough, but I do think there are room for solutions. B-netting didn't exist for WC skiing speed events back in the hay bale era, but the change has undoubtedly saved lives. It'll be interesting to see what innovations occur for road cycling descents.The riders though, will always take risks. Maybe cycling can learn something from ski racing, if not in final form, but at least in process.

 

[Mothertucker]

Not much in the way of protective gear in cycling, given the risk. Lycra, fingerless gloves, and a plastic hat. I only wore a helmet if required, dumb.

 

[Tony S]

 

[cantunamunch]

^Nicely tricky combo at speed. Doesn't look like Switzerland to these eyes?

 

[markojp]

Why change the geometry? Slammed stems, seat posts out? The bikes are much stiffer than the steel era. And would a 20lb bike solve the issue? No. Is a road bike position 'natural'? If one isn't able to ride/train themselves into a strong aero position, then they're probably not going to make a living road racing. Neutralizing descents? Really? Seems some form of netting is the direction, but even then, it's doubtful regional/municipal govts are going to (or be able to given they're unlikely to own the land) clear trees away from roads below the treeline to be able to make it as effective as in WC skiing, but it'd be a start, albeit a huge logistical challenge given the mileages involved.

It would be interesting to see injury/fatality statistics for pro cycling during training and racing. I'd venture to guess automobiles are the largest problem, with doping a close second. Out of curiosity, how do DH and XC MTB injury rates compare?

I guess I always saw DH handling skills as unique to the rider, and something that can be coached, equipment optimized for good handling... not all frames are equal, that's for sure. To their credit, UCI banned particular positions that added hazard/handling risk, and kept going downhill 'recognizable' and 'doable' for cycling fans and wannabes. Walter Mity feeds the sport and bike industry, that's for sure! Anyhow, best leave it here as I doubt there's a lot that will be agreed on.

 

[Tony S]

^Nicely tricky combo at speed. Doesn't look like Switzerland to these eyes?

France. Nothing technically special about the corner or the rider. Beautiful place to be cycling, though, obviously. I was just choosing to emphasize the stoke part of descending over the terror part.

 

[Tom K.]

The longest descent I've ever been on on my bike has been leaving the rim of Crater Lake, Oregon.

That is a fun one! Two more in Oregon/(barely) Washington I'll add:

Lost Lake a bit southwest of Hood River. Astounding curves.

But my absolute favorite is Old Man Pass outside of Carson WA. Recently repaved. Only 5 miles. Almost no traffic. Killer pizza in Carson when you're done.

On the right day (for me) the entire thing -- which is one corner after another -- can be done without touching your brakes, though this is a real act of faith on two of the curves.

Crafting stages to have uphill finishes is how. Stages that finish in descents or descents-to-flat-TT are begging for descent wars. We proved that back in the Contador/Nibali/Froome generation of riders.

Some truth there, though the flat sprint finishes have their own issues.

It's a dangerous sport no matter what. Minimize the risk is something tangible. Ultimately the riders have to make good choices too.

Respectfully disagree. The pros are generally too young to make great decisions in this regard. Still in the "can't happen to me" years of their lives.

But ultimately, I think that trying to make road racing safe is a bit like trying to do the same with motorcycles at the Isle of Mann. Not sure there is any practical solution.

 

[scott43]

I was watching my pro buddy race superbike at Mt Tremblant years ago and one of the fast import riders went into the wall at turn two and broke both his legs. I said that sucks. He said why? Eleven corners on that track and only one will break your legs and that's the one he chooses to try to make time. Idiot. I mean I thought that was rather harsh but.. that's it I guess...

 

[Tom K.]

I was watching my pro buddy race superbike at Mt Tremblant years ago and one of the fast import riders went into the wall at turn two and broke both his legs. I said that sucks. He said why? Eleven corners on that track and only one will break your legs and that's the one he chooses to try to make time. Idiot. I mean I thought that was rather harsh but.. that's it I guess...

Yah, I guess, though as I age, I find myself much less likely to throw the first stone.