Define 'de-tune'

[Wilhelmson]

I do but I think I blame that more on me not being patient with my turns in 3D snow.

Probably but the same skis three days later will behave better in junk if not resharpened.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Does anyone notice that well sharpened skis feel a little hooky in fresh or chopped up snow? I prefer this to dulled edges but still notice it sometimes.

Nope. Talking about chopped up snow, of the heavier variety.

Seems like if you want to smear it will but will be a little fussy on the way. Maybe I'll try the gummy halfway through the day this Saturday. Sounds like the right kind of weird snow.

But then I'm not trying to smear my turns in chopped up snow, because the whole ski is embedded. Or on edge and partly embedded. Again, talking about chopped up heavyish snow.

 

[James]

Dulling or rounding of non skiing edges at tip or tail is not detuning. Simply because there's no need to tune them in the first place. You don't use it for skiing. You dull them for safety. If you've ever been launched or seen someone launched, you'll dull it.

Detuning, as practiced by shops who think they know better, are still stuck with straight ski mentality, or just don't know better, is significant dulling of tip or tail or both. Usually involves a diamond stone or equivalent. A file should have them throw in ski jail unless it's a rail ski.

I was in a mt shop pre season several years ago. Two of the young guys were sitting going through brand new demo skis. Every ski they'd take a diamond stone and saw at the tips and tails. One after another...

I've seen skis so detuned after many shop visits that they could never be made sharp in that shovel area.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Nope. Talking about chopped up snow, of the heavier variety.


But then I'm not trying to smear my turns in chopped up snow, because the whole ski is embedded. Or on edge and partly embedded. Again, talking about chopped up heavyish snow.

Perhaps brushed turn in lightly diced fluff over mild slab when i might rather not overedge due to hidden rocks. Gota take what we can get round these parts.

Ive been thrown head over in chop on ice but only blame the tune a little altough the tech did process them with the race skis and warned me.

 

[Bendu]

most people mistake burrs as sharp. If a ski is sharp but not burred it will not feel catchy in soft snow.

burrs are the issues, not sharp edges.

 

[François Pugh]

Smeared turns are what 1 degree base bevel is for.

 

[no edge]

You dull them for safety. If you've ever been launched or seen someone launched, you'll dull it

I wondered why that happens when I tune them. I file the whole ski. I do go over the handlebars from time to time. Not this season however. It takes a few turns to get used to it.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Smeared turns are what 1 degree base bevel is for.

They make smeared turns easier, but you can rail a 1 degree base bevel, too. Sharpness and grip is primarily dictated by the side bevel. Responsiveness is primarily a function of the base bevel.

 

[James]

I wondered why that happens when I tune them. I file the whole ski. I do go over the handlebars from time to time. Not this season however. It takes a few turns to get used to it.

If it happens, you’re in the air. The one guy I watched, in our group, flew right into the tree branches. People next to me just took off to get patrol. Fortunately, he just cut a couple branches and they slowed him down and he landed in snow.

When it happened to me, I was launched, both skis in air. I’m heading right for the forest, and all I see are trunks. I fully expected to take a 16 inch evergreen trunk to the chest. Luckily, my tails caught the snow piled up before the forest. I then slammed and face planted at the base of the tree. Helmet vents were crammed full of snow. Ski left marks on the trunk.
Aspen Highlands, that ridge heading to the lift by Cloud 9.

 

[oldschoolskier]

@Doug Briggs know who you are, I’m going to approach this carefully......

Old school “detune” was to soften the edge at tip and tail (better yet remove them). Personally I never bought into this concept. It was to allow a progressive edge engagement.

Now a days we use base bevel to accomplish the same thing with better predictability. Some tuners because of technique and preference remove burr in various methods (which you’ve already mentioned), this is not detune just ensuring a proper edge.

Unfortunately the term and concept of detune has remained well beyond its useful years and some grinder jockeys haven’t moved on.

Hence the “no detune” instructions, which I believe should be meant as don’t F...up my skis by destroying my edge at tip and tail.

Again, knowing your knowledge far exceeds mine, whats the trick to the question?

 

[Uncle-A]

One of the key themes here is that it is not always about WHAT is done so much as about WHO does it. In other words, it's about which of us are control freaks.

For those of us here when it comes to our skis most of us are control freaks.

 

[Uncle-A]

My definition of "de-tune" is to dull the edge in between the contact points. It was important years ago but not today. The new skis work better if you stay sharp in between the contact points. BTW it has nothing to do with the use of a gummy. I think softening the edge outside the contact points is ok but that is not a great distance. @ Doug Briggs this is a good thread because understanding what customers want is very important, Thanks

 

[LiquidFeet]

That's why I'm asking. I've said what we do at the shop after tuning a ski, but I'm not going to bias the thread by saying what it is here.....

@Doug Briggs would you mind telling what you do with your skis after tuning a ski, now that the thread has been going for a while? And in the shop what you do with other people's skis?

 

[no edge]

.

When it happened to me, I was launched, both skis in air. I’m heading right for the forest, and all I see are trunks..

So many close calls over the years. Never take it for granted.

 

[Doug Briggs]

@Doug Briggs would you mind telling what you do with your skis after tuning a ski, now that the thread has been going for a while? And in the shop what you do with other people's skis?

I tune my skis with the Wintersteiger Scout which uses ceramic discs for both side and base edges. It is pretty clean and smooth, apart from the innies from hitting rocks. After edging with the Scout, I take a fairly hard and fine gummi to the edges beyond the contact points at the tips and tails for 4 - 5 fairly firm strokes at about 45*. Between the contact points, I very lightly run the gummi once or twice along the length, also at about 45*. I don't consider this detuning, but simply the necessary steps to finish the tune. This is what I do to customers skis in general, as well. If a ski has a lot of edge damage remaining due to harsh use, I might take a few more light passes on the working edge to soften the transition from sharp edge to innie. The ski isn't dulled much but the harsh transition resulting from newly sharpened edge to the innie is less ragged.

So I don't consider myself as detuning when I use the gummi as I just described. Detuning, to me, would mean more pressure and more strokes with the gummi on the edges near the contact points along the edges between the contact points, effectively dulling them and slightly rounding them.

 

[Doug Briggs]

@Doug Briggs know who you are, I’m going to approach this carefully......

Old school “detune” was to soften the edge at tip and tail (better yet remove them). Personally I never bought into this concept. It was to allow a progressive edge engagement.

Now a days we use base bevel to accomplish the same thing with better predictability. Some tuners because of technique and preference remove burr in various methods (which you’ve already mentioned), this is not detune just ensuring a proper edge.

Unfortunately the term and concept of detune has remained well beyond its useful years and some grinder jockeys haven’t moved on.

Hence the “no detune” instructions, which I believe should be meant as don’t F...up my skis by destroying my edge at tip and tail.

Again, knowing your knowledge far exceeds mine, whats the trick to the question?

No need for kid gloves. As my tagline says 'If I ask questions, it is because I seek clarity, not argument.'

You defined the old de-tune which I totally agree with. I did detune but not excessively in the old days (70s, 80s). I just responded to @LiquidFeet what I do to skis now' which I don't consider detuning, but rather finishing. In a nutshell, light work with a gummi.

I posed the question because so many people say 'don't de-tune' my skis and I wonder what they think I might have in mind for their skis. I wanted to learn what people consider de-tuning in the here and now. I suspect they think I'm going to round off their tips and tails when I wouldn't even consider it.

 

[mdf]

I posed the question because so many people say 'don't de-tune' my skis and I wonder what they think I might have in mind for their skis. I wanted to learn what people consider de-tuning in the here and now. I suspect they think I'm going to round off their tips and tails when I wouldn't even consider it.

It only takes one experience to make customers paranoid.
In 2004 at Jackson Hole I had a guy recommended by my instructor tune my skis. That should have been in the modern era and I didn't even think to mention de-tuning, but he did a pretty aggressive de-tuning on them. I was surprised and dismayed. (In hindsight, I didn't really know how to ski back then, so it didn't matter that much. If someone did that to my skis now, I would be very unhappy.)

 

[eok]

It only takes one experience to make customers paranoid.
In 2004 at Jackson Hole I had a guy recommended by my instructor tune my skis. That should have been in the modern era and I didn't even think to mention de-tuning, but he did a pretty aggressive de-tuning on them. I was surprised and dismayed. (In hindsight, I didn't really know how to ski back then, so it didn't matter that much. If someone did that to my skis now, I would be very unhappy.)

Yes, so true.

Two reputable shops in my area insist on doing pretty aggressive de-tuning, despite my telling them not to. This is the kind of de-tuning where you wonder if the edges in the shovels of the skis are so rounded that they'll be impossible to get sharp again. The last time this happened (a couple years ago) I personally wrote "DO NOT DE-TUNE!!" on the work form. They still did it anyway. I just don't get the de-tuning fanaticism at those shops.

Seriously, I just don't get it. Imagine a reputable ski shop deliberately de-tuning slalom skis... always. Slalom skis are particularly vulnerable to the impact of this stupidity because of their relatively short length.

So I just stick to using the shops for simple base grinds & binding mounts and that's it. Only a Wintersteiger - or myself - gets to touch my ski edges now.

 

[Doug Briggs]

So no one would call what I described in #35 (light gummi work) de-tuning?

 

[James]

So no one would call what I described in #35 (light gummi work) de-tuning?

Basically no.
Everything is relative. If it's reversible with a diamond stone, I wouldn't call it detuning. Thus light gummi is not detuning. You could call it relieving sharpness if that's the intent, rather than burr issues.

Bode said I think during the run up to Sochi, that you want the edges as dull as possible to do the job. His "dull" is not what most consider dull. (When's the time Bode tuned his own skis, 1997?) Would love to hear his tech on that. Part of it might be instead of a 5-7 deg side for injected ice in tech events, you're in 3-4 deg.