Drill Deconstructing Mikaela Shiffrin slalom turns

[Swede]

I would like to pose another question if that is okay.
Technique wise, what is the most important skill/piece of technique in modern day ski racing according to the contributors here on pug?

Outside ski.

 

[karlo]

If you see world class skiing, what do you find most noticeable in their technique?

A quiet, still upper body , regardless of what it takes from the extremities. The technique of holding the core really tight and driving it through whatever.

Level 4, expert? What scale is that?

 

[karlo]

Outside ski.

No. The technique of skiing on the inside ski, at will, or as the occasion calls for it, without a hiccup to the line. That's a work class skier. That's MS in, was it, the Olympics.

 

[Zentune]

Art, I agree with the semantics point...it's just something I don't usually say (quiet upper), although I never say never either ;-)

But *mechanically speaking....it definitely isn't quiet (the upper), but rather very active, it's just, in what way is it active...upper body rotation takes upper body effort as well!

That's my story and I'm sticking to it

zenny

 

[Swede]

No. The technique of skiing on the inside ski, at will, or as the occasion calls for it, without a hiccup to the line. That's a work class skier. That's MS in, was it, the Olympics.

Err, yes, sure. But the most important thing to pay attention to is that the outside ski is king. Ask Michaela and she'll tell you exactly that.

 

[Art of Skiing]

Level 4, expert? What scale is that?

What do you mean?

Art, I agree with the semantics point...it's just something I don't usually say (quiet upper), although I never say never either ;-)

But *mechanically speaking....it definitely isn't quiet (the upper), but rather very active, it's just, in what way is it active...upper body rotation takes upper body effort as well!

That's my story and I'm sticking to it

zenny

Imo quiet/still does not inherently mean inactive. Maybe that's where the confusion comes from.
Of course you need a lot of upper body tension, but isn't that tension there to keep the upper body as quiet as possible? Imo upper body movement is a consequence of technique and not something you should consciously be doing.

 

[karlo]

Err, yes, sure. But the most important thing to pay attention to is that the outside ski is king. Ask Michaela and she'll tell you exactly that.

Yes, for an expert skier. He was asking about world class skiing, what distinguishes one from the other. I was trying to pick out one distinction.

 

[Muleski]

This thread keeps on giving!
Very entertaining.

 

[karlo]

What do you mean?

When you compare a world class skier to an expert skier (let's say a level 4).

 

[Art of Skiing]

Still don't get it...
What do you mean by 'what scale is that'?
Is a level 4 not an expert skier or how should I interpret this?

 

[mdf]

Because you did not tell him you mean a Canadian Instructor certified at Level 4, which is the top level.

 

[karlo]

This discussion about still vs. disciplined is pointless. It's all semantics.

This thread keeps on giving!

It may seem esoteric and semantic, but I'm learning a lot as I consider points of view and compare that with my skiing. And, putting my reaction to words creates mental clarity as to what I do and what I need to do.

 

[karlo]

Because you did not tell him you mean a Canadian Instructor certified at Level 4, which is the top level.

Oh. So, that's like PSIA Level 3? Or, like PSIA Examiner?

 

[Art of Skiing]

Ow I'm sorry. I thought in the US and Canada everything went from level 1 to 4.
Level 4 is examiner right? That is what I meant at least.
I'm used to the Austrian system, which does not use numbers to indicate levels.

 

[karlo]

When you compare a world class skier to an expert skier (let's say a level 4). Does the world class skier do the same things better or are there noticeable differences? If there are differences, what are they? How can we overcome those differences?

Level 4 is examiner

Examiners excel at teaching and at demonstrating the "ideal" form. World class skiers are far more fit and do not adhere to that form. For instance, an examiner will have the perfect poling. The world class skier couldn't care less and would just as soon not pole plant, simply powering through the turn and the chosen line with immensely, ahem, quiet, still, stable upper body in the most challenging conditions. The examiner's upper body would likely get thrown. The examiner can overcome the challenge by becoming more fit, then learn how to use that fitness. The world class skier can overcome his or her deficiencies by being empathetic to a guest, and taking clinics on how to teach, from as many sensei's as possible.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Most important thing? The start. If you have a lousy start you will probably have a lousy run. If you are weak in the start, you are giving up valuable time and speed to the first gate.

Of course you could go to a point before the start and say preparation is most important.

I think I'm going to go with preparation. If you get to the start and aren't prepared you may as well not step into the start gate.

 

[markojp]

A quiet, still upper body , regardless of what it takes from the extremities. The technique of holding the core really tight and driving it through whatever.

Level 4, expert? What scale is that?

Karlo, with respect, you're telling a number of people with a lot of successful teaching and coaching experience 'no'. This will go better if we way, "in my opnion, I think it has worked better for me when teaching/coaching when ___________ happens" or similar. We're really into chicken and egg territory, but in the end, it's about what the skis are doing on the snow, and of course, having fun. As one teaches/coaches more, there are many things that once seemed to be 'the' thing to sort out, but over time, we come to realize that different skiers need different approaches and different words. Sometimes they need different coaches.

Interestingly enough, if skiing with a colleague or someone with well developed (truly expert) skills, simply telling them what you see in their snow/ski interaction will be enough information for them to make the changes needed for the outcome they're looking for. Don't have to mention a thing beyond that.

 

[James]

Canadian level 4 is probably better than most examiners. But we digress.

Imagine if one used "still", "quiet", and "disciplined" in the same paragraph when talking to those seeking level 2. They might be traumatized for life. Best to take up telemarking...or maybe telemarleting.

Karlo, with respect, you're telling a number of people with a lot of successful teaching and coaching experience 'no'. This will go better if we way, "in my opnion, I think it has worked better for me when teaching/coaching when ___________ happens" or similar. We're really into chicken and egg territory, but in the end, it's about what the skis are doing on the snow, and of course, having fun. As one teaches/coaches more, there are many things that once seemed to be 'the' thing to sort out, but over time, we come to realize that different skiers need.

Interestingly enough, if skiing with a colleague or someone with well developed (trully expert) skills, simply telling them what you see in their skiing will be enough information for them to make the changes needed for the outcome they're looking for. Don't have to mention a thing beyond that.

See, all that discussion but you never have addressed there or above what AoS wants to know. What happened when you used the terms "still" or "quiet" as opposed to "disciplined"? That would basically settle it instead of "do you coach"? Which is essentially punting while saying what a great punt it was.
As the pug turns...

 

[karlo]

in my opnion,

Sorry. Everything I write is an IMO. Thought that was implicit, IMO.

 

[markojp]

Canadian level 4 is probably better than most examiners. But we digress.

Imagine if one used "still", "quiet", and "disciplined" in the same paragraph when talking to those seeking level 2. They might be traumatized for life. Best to take up telemarking...or maybe telemarleting.

See, all that discussion but you never have addressed there or above what AoS wants to know. What happened when you used the terms "still" or "quiet" as opposed to "disciplined"? That would basically settle it instead of "do you coach"? Which is essentially punting while saying what a great punt it was.
As the pug turns...

James, I have to apologize. I'm multi-tasking and just can't keep it all together with a fine tooth comb. In a nutshell, in my humble experience, is that when using 'still', for many, the reaction is to take away nearly all motion, including: flexion and extension of the legs, using all joints to manage and control pressure through the arc of a turn (which in turn limits tactical choices and solutions), and static arms, which at higher levels can be used very well for directing pressure forward along the length of the ski without crushing the cuff of the boot, particularly just before transition.

I asked karlo if he coached not to discredit him, but to try to figure out where his thoughts and experiences have led to his conclusions. We had a couple of nice PM's back and forth fwiw and seem to be on good terms. FWIW, I also telemark and have taught clinics, etc... in the past in another association. It seems our circumstances vary and my words cause some consternation. That isn't my intent, but it does seem to be the nature of pretty much all ski instruction forums as we often type truncated thoughts while busy with our 1:1 lives beyond the screen.