Deb Armstrong Beginner ski lesson series

[JESinstr]

@McEl
I also disagree with telling people to press in their boots. There are easier and simpler ways to get neverevers to balance in a for and aft plane such as scooter turn on flat while emphasizing keeping the ski behind you, walking the dog with kids and even adult, the skis are the dog and the human always leads, to flat out just explaining a balanced stance and how that movement is going to move down the hill. The issue with most adult beginner is their good posture for their normal life is the antithesis of good skiing stance, they like to stance with their spine arched and not rounded and shoulders back and not forward.

and again braking wedges are ok I have never heard from any PSIA ed staff member that they are not. If you beginner hill is too steep to use a gliding wedge, then use the braking wedge.

I'm with you.
The prevailing notion, which permeates many snow sports schools, that we should teach people to press into to their boots is misguided.
Shin/tongue pressure is a RESULT of activating the "Flex Complex". That is, Ankles, Knees and Hips. Ankles being most important, Hips being most critical. This is the mechanism we need to PROPERLY employ in order to achieve and maintain the "Sweet Spot" of dynamic balance while at the same time manage pressure to the ski.......while at the same time creating a "flex complex" configuration that promotes angle building.

And to your other great point (which many readers won't stop to ponder) Humans bring their learned, everyday life habits to the ski slopes and that not only includes their posture but their mechanisms of balance while on the move, aka walking running skipping etc.

 

[Josh Matta]

so Deb has edited the audio for video #3. It now say steer and put weight on the outside leg. If you do not believe me find someone who can read lips.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

New intro added to video #3. Good for her addressing the criticism. When I was clinching instructors last week and we were talking about braking vs. gliding, I talked about Austrian Ski Schools, and their use of the braking wedge. Somehow they still produced Herman Maier, Marcel Harsher, etc., so obviously there is more than one path (probably most of us learned that way too).

 

[markojp]

One thing left unmentioned in this entire thread is Deb's use of the teaching cycle. This, for new instructors, is an incredibly valuable example. This also one lesson divided into three video segments. I don't personally imagine it would be all too hard to introduce separation in lesson two.

I also think we need to remember, no matter what one might be told or perceive, one instructor,/trainer/SSD/etc... DOES NOT equal PSIA. For many, PSIA is too diffuse and offers too little "do it like this". For others, it's perceived as top down dictatorial. In my mind and experience, PSIA offers a framework to explore and tinker. I certainly don't exclude ideas from other organizations and individuals if the outcomes are effective, and I've yet to be told "PSIA way or the highway".

 

[James]

The point I want to make is that, to the untrained eye, there is very little visual difference between what Deb demoed and what Tuesday did but it makes all the difference in the world when it comes stance and the ability to properly manipulate the ski. If Deb Armstrong missed it, I wonder how many instructors of lesser ability and stature miss it. Worse yet, don't even know what correct stance looks like.

This is the shot at 3:13

Pretty standard for very early movement on skis.
So how are you going to coach that out? Possibly getting rid of poles would help. It just tenses up the whole upper body and could contribute to the arched back, butt out stance.
Time gliding in a area with an upslope where you stop naturally would help.

 

[markojp]

If we're looking for perfection on the first attempt, it's going to be a long lesson with little mileage to 'correct', and a zero return rate.

 

[markojp]

This is the shot at 3:13
View attachment 86997

Pretty standard for very early movement on skis.
So how are you going to coach that out? Possibly getting rid of poles would help. It just tenses up the whole upper body and could contribute to the arched back, butt out stance.
Time gliding in a area with an upslope where you stop naturally would help.

If we recall, she has a dance background. I think we can help her correct her pelvis tilt quickly.

 

[Ron]

they like to stance with their spine arched and not rounded and shoulders back and not forward.

see it all the time.

 

[markojp]

see it all the time.

Kind of a cultural gender construct. High heels force this alignment. Gymnasts and dancers often do it walking. Pretty easy to sort it out with the last two.

 

[JESinstr]

This is the shot at 3:13
View attachment 86997

Pretty standard for very early movement on skis.
So how are you going to coach that out? Possibly getting rid of poles would help. It just tenses up the whole upper body and could contribute to the arched back, butt out stance.
Time gliding in a area with an upslope where you stop naturally would help.

What if we talked instead about the concept of coaching IN vs coaching OUT? You mention tension as if it is a negative one way street.

Ron Kip in his "Flex the Ankles" video talks about the need for tension. If you coach "in" tension to achieve the feeling of proper balance and build muscle memory, it is a very easy task to coach it "out" as the student builds confidence.

I have had significant success with this approach, specifically with creating tension in the foot. On the edges of their feet in a wedge, the requirement of raising the toes and stretching the feet helps properly position the student and lets them really feel the arch area thus becoming the conscious target for their dynamic balance efforts.

By extending the arms and squeezing the grips of the poles, we can also use tension to inhibit upper body disruptions to balance. Is this final form? Of course not. And we might want to question why would anyone want to coach a beginner to final form in the first place. This is only for a couple of slides and once they "Get It" we release the coached "in" tension.

 

[James]

If we recall, she has a dance background. I think we can help her correct her pelvis tilt quickly.

With that awareness, probably just mentioning that she is developing T-Rex arms and taking the poles away would solve the arm issue. I’ve played catch with people using a glove.

On the edges of their feet in a wedge, the requirement of raising the toes and stretching the feet helps properly position the student and lets them really feel the arch area thus becoming the conscious target for their dynamic balance efforts.

Lots of people completely clench their toes clawing at the ground. This inhibits closing the ankle and probably locks a lot of things up. Lifting the toes, wiggling the toes could definitely help.
I still don’t get what you’d do to have Tuesday’s balance be more like Deb’s.

There’s also often an issue with the cuff of the boot being way too loose. So there’s no support there, the body senses it and tgey stay way back. If you already know how to ski you can do it with loose cuffs as you plantar flex yourself from going too far forward.

 

[markojp]

With that awareness, probably just mentioning that she is developing T-Rex arms and taking the poles away would solve the arm issue. I’ve played catch with people using a glove.

I might take an entirely different approach and use the poles for something else, but here we are, throwing everything we know in the collective pot (and showing that even Olympians suck) in one shovel load in the thread. It's the antithesis of keeping it simple. I'm not all too worried about the nuances of arm carriage right away. I am very much focused on tipping, flattening, moving with, and 'feeling' the sensations on skis when we start getting to the outcomes we're looking for.

 

[4ster]

The issue with most adult beginner is their good posture for their normal life is the antithesis of good skiing stance, they like to stance with their spine arched and not rounded and shoulders back and not forward.

and again braking wedges are ok I have never heard from any PSIA ed staff member that they are not. If you beginner hill is too steep to use a gliding wedge, then use the braking wedge.

...
...& one of the most difficult issues to exterminate (or hardest habits to break). IME, this hollowback stance just locks the spine to the hips & makes it near impossible to allow the body parts to all work independently or develop separation. Some of the best racers in the world exhibit this & it drives me nuts! One in particular ended her career with major hip & back issues (I am convinced there is a correlation). Just like the braking wedge, the instructor/coach may need to let them get away with it for awhile but it is their duty to make it clear that this is something that needs to be corrected if they are going to develop on the easiest path.

Pretty rare that I ever taught a "first time on skis" lesson without at least touching on the braking wedge.

Semantics: Does anyone ever speak of putting their weight, pressure, balance AGAINST the ski instead of ON it. AGAINST allows for stacking, whearas ON seems like a more muscular effort.

 

[markojp]

I have a hunch Deb gets there with her students.... Just a hunch.

 

[4ster]

I have a hunch Deb gets there with her students.... Just a hunch.

Yup! I have only skimmed through this thread & watched bits & pieces of the videos but it seemed like a pretty typical FTOS to me with a pretty average student.

 

[James]

but here we are, throwing everything we know in the collective pot (and showing that even Olympians suck) in one shovel load in the thread. It's the antithesis of keeping it simple.

Well you don’t serve the whole pot at once. You ladle out the proper amount at the time. Meanwhile, the witch’s brew is coming along.

I agree with you on the stance issue. Spending a lot of time micro changing the stance at the beginning is likely to be very lengthy. At some point frustration will set in, they likely will get worse, and now you’ve lost them.

Fifty years ago you might have been able to make people do nothing but side step for a whole day. I skied with someone at Big Sky who as a kid spent three days just side stepping, going straight. Never made a turn.

78 years ago, Army training. Snowplow at 2:15.

 

[Josh Matta]

I actually break hollow back stance pretty easily. @4ster

feet flat, ankle flex, tail tucked belly button back, shoulder forwards. If that doesnt work ski a dozen runs with you hands on top of your knees....

 

[markojp]

I actually break hollow back stance pretty easily. @4ster

feet flat, ankle flex, tail tucked belly button back, shoulder forwards. If that doesnt work ski a dozen runs with you hands on top of your knees....

It's generally pretty easy as you say. But every once in awhile....

 

[4ster]

I actually break hollow back stance pretty easily. @4ster

feet flat, ankle flex, tail tucked belly button back, shoulder forwards. If that doesnt work ski a dozen runs with you hands on top of your knees....

i’ve got one where you tuck a ski pole across your chest and under your arms just above the elbows. Eliminate the hollow back & gets the arms in a better position at the same time. Try it
Someone who has made this stance their comfort zone is not going to change it easily.

 

[Josh Matta]

that why with all this talk of we shouldn't teach final movement to beginners, its the best time to teach correct movements.

Honestly 90 percent of my adult beginners can do L3 quality Wedge turns.

I dont like the poles between the chestand arms . I find it to be pretty contrived.