Deb Armstrong Beginner ski lesson series

[LiquidFeet]

....
I once got an answer almost as bad from an examiner when I asked about counter. The response was so bizarre, involving he who can’t be named, that I was speechless. It also completely cut off dialog unless I really wanted to push it, and by then there was no reason to even listen to what he had to say, and it would have derailed what was going on. with the group. It was really weird.
....

I've wondered why the word "counter" has gotten such a bad rap. It's as if using it means you ski poorly. I think people think that if you use the word "counter" you do these things or teach them:
1. assume a pose and hold it through your turns
2. artificially and self-consciously turn the body at initiation to face outside the upcoming turn
The first refers back to some bad things that happened in the White Book era (I think?)
The second refers to one (mistaken, I think) reading of HH's materials.

"Separation" has replaced "counter." "Skiing into counter" is now OK to say, but saying "countering" as a verb or "counter" as a noun, all by itself in a sentence, is harshly looked down upon.

It's a good word. I wish people would get over this.

 

[Uke]

One point about the braking wedge. For a lot of first timers they have to know that they can stop before they can let themselves go, no matter how gentle the slope is. Just make sure that they understand that while being able to stop is important skiing is about going and its the going that makes everything work.

uke

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Just an observation. Look at her Olympics run on YouTube. Look at the similarity with when she is describing the wedge while “hand skiing”. If I had to guess, 30 years from now if Mikaela Shiffrin is teaching beginner lessons she might emphasize different things than Ddb does today.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Just an observation. Look at her Olympics run on YouTube. Look at the similarity with when she is describing the wedge while “hand skiing”. If I had to guess, 30 years from now if Mikaela Shiffrin is teaching beginner lessons she might emphasize different things than Ddb does today.

Great observation. I've been in several clinics with Deb and love her enthusiastic descriptions of things she wants the body to do to operate the skis, but I believe she's a much more muscular skier than Mikaela, probably because Deb began when one had to force the skis rather than just manipulate them to take you where you wanted to go and then stand against the resulting forces.

 

[Ron]

I am big Deb Fan, for anyone who is interested, you can go to YouTube and search for her, she has a lot of really great videos.

 

[Chris V.]

I've wondered why the word "counter" has gotten such a bad rap. It's as if using it means you ski poorly. I think people think that if you use the word "counter" you do these or teach them:
1. assume a pose and hold it through your turns
2. artificially and self-consciously turn the body at initiation to face outside the upcoming turn
The first refers back to some bad things that happened in the White Book era (I think?)
The second refers to one (mistaken, I think) reading of HH's materials.

"Separation" has replaced "counter." "Skiing into counter" is now OK to say, but saying "countering" as a verb or "counter" as a noun, all by itself in a sentence, is harshly looked down upon.

It's a good word. I wish people would get over this.

People hate it when you use different language than they do.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Starting at 4:30

 

[Ron]

I run into here every now and then in town, I will invite her to check this out.

 

[JESinstr]

A breaking wedge is a large wedge formed by a pushing from the heels, which Deb's student does. A large wedge formed by a through-the-arch rotary based "brushing" merely results in two skis carving against each other.

 

[Chris V.]

A breaking wedge is a large wedge formed by a pushing from the heels, which Deb's student does. A large wedge formed by a through-the-arch rotary based "brushing" merely results in two skis carving against each other.

Between the two forms of wedge that you describe, what are the differences in edge angle and fore-aft balance?

 

[JESinstr]

Between the two forms of wedge that you describe, what are the differences in edge angle and fore-aft balance?

Chris, If a skier develops a wedge configuration from the back seat by pushing the heels out vs rotating around the arch, they will lose the ability to effectively control and manage edge angles let alone fore-aft balance.

If you begin at 1:55 in the below video, Deb demos the construction of decent size wedge by rotating around the arch and brushing outward through the arch even though she says all she is doing is steering the toes in.
The Student (Tuesday) uses her poles to begin movement and immediately settles onto her heels to construct the wedge.
Unfortunately, Deb proclaims "Awesome!" I don't fault her for that as this was the filming of an event and many things are taking place.

The point I want to make is that, to the untrained eye, there is very little visual difference between what Deb demoed and what Tuesday did but it makes all the difference in the world when it comes stance and the ability to properly manipulate the ski. If Deb Armstrong missed it, I wonder how many instructors of lesser ability and stature miss it. Worse yet, don't even know what correct stance looks like.

 

[McEl]

For beginners who may be reading this thread (and for parents of beginners who are trying to make sense out of all the new information at the early stages) also recommended is the 7-video series recently (2018) created in collaboration between PSIA national and Halley O’Brien, with Eric Lipton. These 7 videos are largely consistent with the 3 Armstrong videos. Ms. Armstrong notes that her 3-video presentation is only one sequence for obtaining desired results, and presumably she knew of the PSIA/O’Brien/Lipton videos, some of which are found at https://www.thesnowpros.org/take-a-lesson/beginners-guide-to-skiing

If Armstrong video #3 is due a criticism, it may be that Ms. Armstrong could have told viewers that the next stage of this student’s instruction would be to develop separation and counter in her turning. Many beginners have extreme difficulty with the notion of counter and separation, and going into that would have made the third video too long. Separation and counter warrant a separate video. It seems to me that the student (Tuesday) is now at that point, at the end of video # 3.

With respect to the # 3 PSIA/Lipton video Getting around the Mountain, it introduces wedge turns to a beginner in a more brief but similar manner to Armstrong's introduction.
and http://www.halleyobrien.com/beginners-guide-to-skiing-youtube-series

Video # 4, Three Key Moves for Your First Day, is at
Video #5, Making Your First Turns, is at
#5 shows stepping turning (“100” steps) for anyone who is interested in trying an initial part of a version of what is sometimes called a direct-to-parallel progression (that is, not based on the wedge position), provided that the beginner area has enough gentle terrain. Subsequent parts of that kind of progression are not shown, presumably to keep the video short. Also not shown is the prerequisite work leading up to the student's ability to step through a turn. Compare the wedge turn in video # 3.

Video # 6, What to Wear, is at
Video #7, How to Get Off the Chair Lift, is at
Recognizing that much is not shown, things that will be taught in other lessons -- such as separation and counter, this series of 7 videos can be recommended to beginners.

PSIA national, if monitoring this thread, might consider adding videos # 4, 5, 6 and 7 to the PSIA website where # 1, 2 and 3 can be found.

(Note to exam candidates. Mr. Lipton demonstrates the Braking Wedge at 1:41 in video # 3. Perhaps this constitutes official sanction of the disputed Braking Wedge, at least as of 2018 – the date of the video!)

 

[Chris V.]

Chris, If a skier develops a wedge configuration from the back seat by pushing the heels out vs rotating around the arch, they will lose the ability to effectively control and manage edge angles let alone fore-aft balance.

If you begin at 1:55 in the below video, Deb demos the construction of decent size wedge by rotating around the arch and brushing outward through the arch even though she says all she is doing is steering the toes in.

The Student (Tuesday) uses her poles to begin movement and immediately settles onto her heels to construct the wedge.
Unfortunately, Deb proclaims "Awesome!" I don't fault her for that as this was the filming of an event and many things are taking place.

The point I want to make is that, to the untrained eye, there is very little visual difference between what Deb demoed and what Tuesday did but it makes all the difference in the world when it comes stance and the ability to properly manipulate the ski. If Deb Armstrong missed it, I wonder how many instructors of lesser ability and stature miss it. Worse yet, don't even know what correct stance looks like.

What I'm seeing is that Deb first spreads her feet wide while still parallel, to enable her to then rotate under her arches into a large wedge without having her ski tips crash into each other.

I'm not seeing Tuesday use her poles except to push off the mat, at which point she hasn't started any rotation. She then simultaneously spreads her feet and rotates the skis to create the wedge. As she moves fully into the wedge, her shins go a bit vertical, and her hips drop back slightly.

They end in wedges of similar size, with tips a similar distance apart. It appears to me that they are both using full leg rotation, from the hip sockets, and developing comparable edge angles. Tuesday is probably somewhat back seated, weight concentrated on the heels. This results in her tips being a bit wobbly, moving closer then farther apart, before she settles into her final position. These are the main differences I see in where they end up.

My original question--what are the differences in edge angle and fore-aft balance?--was focused on the fundamentals. Any more feedback on those points?

 

[teejaywhy]

People hate it when you use different language than they do.

Which is what I notice about instruction. That's great that instructors have their own language and can communicate to each other, but from a student's perspective, it can sound like blah blah blah...

The best instructors can figure out how to communicate to the student. Not everyone processes info the same way.

 

[McEl]

Re post # 32 Beginner's Guide
The correct web reference for video # 7 is

 

[JESinstr]

What I'm seeing is that Deb first spreads her feet wide while still parallel, to enable her to then rotate under her arches into a large wedge without having her ski tips crash into each other.

I'm not seeing Tuesday use her poles except to push off the mat, at which point she hasn't started any rotation. She then simultaneously spreads her feet and rotates the skis to create the wedge. As she moves fully into the wedge, her shins go a bit vertical, and her hips drop back slightly.

They end in wedges of similar size, with tips a similar distance apart. It appears to me that they are both using full leg rotation, from the hip sockets, and developing comparable edge angles. Tuesday is probably somewhat back seated, weight concentrated on the heels. This results in her tips being a bit wobbly, moving closer then farther apart, before she settles into her final position. These are the main differences I see in where they end up.

My original question--what are the differences in edge angle and fore-aft balance?--was focused on the fundamentals. Any more feedback on those points?

Chris
Are we looking at the same video? Deb's demos actually begins with a tip divergence compliments of the rug. The next few feet are taken up with pronounced adjustments by her left leg to finally reach equilibrium and finish the demo.

Fundamental 1. Control the relationship of the Center of Mass to the base of support to direct pressure along the length of the skis . You can't to that effectively from the back seat.
Fundamental 3. Control edge angles through a combination of inclination and angulation
As you stated above, her shins go vertical, Vertical shins that are a result of balancing in the back seat are not conducive to building angulation.

 

[David Chaus]

On that Video #2, I observe Deb instruct the student to focus on weight forward, pressuring the shins. She gave the right information, that doesn’t mean students can get it all on the first try. So, the student sat in the back seat a little, but not as far back as many if not most students do the first time they try to create a wedge. Deb specifically noted this, after stating “awesome” on the student committing to the movement, which was creating a wedge. She gave positive reinforcement to the movement she wanted to encourage in the student. It doesn’t mean the movements are perfect, rather it’s a good starting point. Corrections to fore-aft balance can then be reinforced with further practice of this movement.

Who is the intended audience of the video, beginning skiers, or PSIA instructors? From the perspective of the student, the video says “I can do this, too.” Baby steps, people.

 

[JESinstr]

Ah, so this is a dessert topping AND a floor wax! LOL

 

[Chris V.]

Are we looking at the same video? Deb's demos actually begins with a tip divergence compliments of the rug. The next few feet are taken up with pronounced adjustments by her left leg to finally reach equilibrium and finish the demo.

Yes, Deb goes through a tip divergence to get her skis from an initial narrow stance into a much wider parallel stance that she holds briefly before making the wedge. This actually strikes me as an odd way to demonstrate starting a wedge. I doubt many would endorse getting students to adopt such an artificially wide stance as their starting parallel position. That may promote an emphasis on pivoting underfoot to create a wedge, but ordinarily creating a wedge of any size includes spreading the feet simultaneously with the pivoting, necessitated by the feet being closer in parallel position than they need to be in the fully developed wedge.

Perhaps more interesting than the question of what Deb and her student do in this short segment is the matter of defining "braking wedge.

The Alpine Technical Manual glossary says it is, "A tactical means of speed control, in which the skier increases the size of the wedge and the degree of edge angle in order to slow down or stop." I doubt anyone would hold out a model of a braking wedge as one in which the skier is aft, balancing on and pushing out the heels.

 

[Josh Matta]

@McEl the thing is if you get leg steering to happen right of the bat, its takes care of fore and aft, and lateral balance, and most people when taught it will develop some edging as well with out any mention of it.

if your legs are steering/separated underneath a stable pelvis, you COM will get pulled forward and too the outside as your legs steer and your skis interaction with the snow take you across the hill. Any bit of hip steering typically makes the good sideaffect of leg steering(balance moving forward and to the outside) go away.

I also disagree with telling people to press in their boots. There are easier and simpler ways to get neverevers to balance in a for and aft plane such as scooter turn on flat while emphasizing keeping the ski behind you, walking the dog with kids and even adult, the skis are the dog and the human always leads, to flat out just explaining a balanced stance and how that movement is going to move down the hill. The issue with most adult beginner is their good posture for their normal life is the antithesis of good skiing stance, they like to stance with their spine arched and not rounded and shoulders back and not forward.

and again braking wedges are ok I have never heard from any PSIA ed staff member that they are not. If you beginner hill is too steep to use a gliding wedge, then use the braking wedge.