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Lorenzzo

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Amy, I relate. I experience paralysis and intense fear whenever I think about getting married again. So far nothing’s worked and I find myself side-slipping.

In seriousness, I was exposed to some training in this area as it pertains to athletic performance. One of the elements involved differentiating between fear and adrenaline. Neither feels comfortable but adrenaline can add to performance while fear often detracts. It’s easy to think it’s one when it’s the other. They can both get one to yak. The audience in my situation already understood they performed better with adrenaline but for many what could be positive goes the other way if fear is perceived. And of course they’re often working together. The nice thing for many who were trained this way, it wasn’t long before they were able to channel fear into a perception of adrenaline which they welcomed because it helped them perform at a higher level. Even if this doesn’t really apply to you, maybe it can help you channel fear to some extent.
 

oldschoolskier

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Fear is good, embrace it, it is your reality check. Uncontrolled fear is something else.

There was a good PBS special on it a year ago and good treatments to over come it. The short version was using an inhibitor to stop the uncontrolled portion and once conquered and accepted the fear was never uncontrolled, but the dislike was still there.

My advise would pick a slope that gets you close and learn how to accept it, slow increase the level to acceptable so that confidence is reached in your abilities. The fear is still there, but now accepted.
 

nay

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I won't speak for Amy, (I see she posted her comments relating to this above) But from my perspective, I showed an interest in doing more difficult terrain. Sometimes its not that you're uninterested in doing something that paralyzes you, its a matter of letting go of the paralysis.

The idea of being "over-terrained" as a matter of intent is interesting to me. It often happens initially because you're with people who aren't over-terrained, and they take you to the edge and off they go. These fine folk rarely realize the fear of the one being over-terrained, because that fear is way back in their own rearview mirror.

I over-terrain myself every time I ski alone, but I prefer to do it with more difficult snow conditions as a matter of repetition and fault analysis than pitch, because I think pitch is the worst teacher (fear) and crud in its various flavors the best (form).

Most people learn to handle some degree of exposure by as safely as possible exposing themselves to the risk repeatedly. At the level of fear and not panic attack, the bailing out stuff is part of the process.

Self permission to bail out sans self flogging has to be in the toolbox. Self permission not to panic isn't relevant, because panic at the level of definition isn't in one's control.
 

surfsnowgirl

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I still freak with this issue but I can be fine on a trail one day and freak the next, just depends where my head is.

Also after skiing at steeper places out west places that used to be steep to me in the northeast are less steep so my confidence is higher and as a result I have less anxiety.
 

T-Square

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Murmur’s book is great. I took one of her first fear courses in the PSIA-E Master Teacher’s program. Excellent!

When dealing with fear or any other issue it’s good to have a bunch of different tools in your kit. The best way to develop that toolkit is through practice, visualization, and gaining knowledge from the experience of others.

A number of years ago I was in a Master Teacher clinic. We were on an semi-icy black. I started out and bobbled a turn and damn near fell. This got into my head and scared the living hell out of me. I was well into the Yikes Zone at that point. I stopped and got re-centered. Then I had to face the issue of getting down that damn hill with my brain screaming, you’re an idiot, if you fall you are going to get hurt. So I decided to “eat the elephant, one bite at a time." I made one turn and stopped. OK, that worked. Then two turns and stopped. OK, I can control speed and turn both directions. So far, so good. Then I started nice controlled easy turns down the hill, knowing I could stop at will. When I reached the bottom I stopped, but my head on my poles and stood there getting my act together. Then continued on a bit wiser. Also had a good belt after skiing that day. ;)

Now, that technique may or may not work for you, but it is now something to have in your toolkit for the future. I’m always looking for things like this for me and my students.
 

tromano

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I quoted all of the above for a response later. I CAN tell by the responses from some of you, that you DO fall into the category of not understanding it at ALL. And that's OK. Maybe you can learn something that you can apply one of these days if you see someone panic. My fear goes beyond what most would consider "rational". All normal thoughts go out the window. I literally CANNOT move. Sometimes, it happens after a few turns, where I almost lose control or struggle to hold a turn, then stop. Then I'm SCREWED.

What perplexes me is that the season prior, I was skiing a lot of stuff that last season, I panicked on. :huh:

If I stop when I feel something funny on the steeps I am screwed too. That used to be my default behavior. After struggling with it for years I tried something different. Finally got around the rhythm leg of the sports triangle and wow did it help!

I started working on this 2 years ago. I still made the mistake once or twice last season it's pretty hard to get going again. The solution that works for me is to roll in 15mph to the top of my line and bounce / jump to get in a rhythm before the scary part. I try to never stop at the top to scope my line. Its unnecessary and makes me ski worse. I just go for it and then don't stop no matter what. If I blow up so be it, but no stopping.

When the skis feel like a skittish chihuahua and the conditions sketchy mixed bag that's the time to trust your technique and training commit to the line and to the turn and just charge through it as hard as you. I learned that the next turn always feels great.
 

mdf

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One more thought: You're not frightened, you are "gripped." If you read stories by they guys skiing the big lines, 14ers and such what, that is what they say when they are too frightened to move. But they treat it as something that happens, not something that defines the trip. Sort of like the weather. Along the lines of "We had to go around because the line we planned was no good, and then I got gripped for awhile on the ridge, so it was late afternoon by the time we got to the top..."

Words matter.
 

BlueSquare

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Long-timer lurker, first-time poster.

Though I don't quite suffer from paralyzing fear, just tremendous fear nonetheless, I feel I can relate to the OP a bit when I face a LONG steep slope. I might as well envision falling into a large dark hole with no bottom in sight to certain death cuz they both yield about the same level of fear. But I can ski down that same steep pitch comfortably if it's only a few 100ft.

This is probably a stupid suggestion, especially since I'm new here, but I wanted to bring it up since no one has suggested it yet and it helped give me that slight boost to tackle my fear of injury so that I may eventually breakthrough my intermediate barrier (besides taking lessons). I bought some full-length padded body protection (e.g. Demon FlexForce, Crash Pads 2200) to wear under my ski jacket and pants. Something to help minimize the impact and potential injury should I fall. Short of a neck brace, full face helmet and a parachute, I can't envision any more protection to help keep me safer should I slide forward past the ledge. Reminding myself I had on some pads helped take some of the edge off and tense just a little less in order to push forward.

Yes, all that stuff is expensive and unnecessary but I've made a lot more wasteful purchases before. Besides, you could always use it for DH mountain biking if not for skiing. Anyways, it helped me and may help you. Also, a big thanks to all you posters here. Lots of invaluable tips!
 
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Rod9301

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One more thought.

It's fine to be talking about conquering the fear, but keep in mind that, when you're on top of a steep, icy slope, it's the same as soloing in climbing, ie if you fall, you can die or he seriously hurt.

So you need to accept the consequences. Then, you need to ski it in a manner that will not allow you to fall.

No fall zones are not just exposed slopes over cliffs

On a steep enough slope, 35-40 degrees, if it's icy, you will not be able to self arrest.

So sometimes, the paralyzing fear is ok, it may simply mean that you have a 1 out of 10 chance of falling, and your subconscious tells you that it doesn't like the odds.

So maybe the thing to do is get better at skiing, so you only have a 1 out of 100 chance of falling.
 
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AmyPJ

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Holy cow, what a great thread! Thanks to all of you! I can see that a few of you can definitely relate.
A clinic with Mermer would be AMAZING. I'll have to keep an eye out to see if she's hitting Snowbird again, or somewhere else out this way.

I will say, one thing that one of the instructors did last season on a nasty cat track/traverse that was loaded with death cookies and ice, complete with an infinite drop down one side, was to talk to me about entirely unrelated things--not skiing. Just ask me questions about life in general. It was kind of brilliant. It shut my brain off and let my body just do what it knew how to do. My favorite instructor skis backwards on stuff that challenges me and cheers and yells at me. Again, it gets me out of my head AND gets me to look at him instead of the slope.

My first question is, why ski the steeps that scare you? I know you ski with L3 instructors, but they should know better. In addition, they should have the courtesy to recognize your fear. My wife had never skied when we met and it took a couple years skiing greens before she progressed to blues and a few years more before she progressed to easier black trails. Then after skiing from a beginner level to seven years later, I felt she was ready to try steeps, bumps, etc. She does great but I do not expect her to ski steeps and I do not expect her to like the trails I ski. We mix it up. In fact, I often will take a run on steeps on my own to see if I think she can handle it then I coach her the first time. That strategy has worked out great. Now, when we met I was already and advanced skier and I never complained, rather I invested in her abilities. My suggestion would be to ski steepish trails that do not threaten you and learn to ski them well, then expose yourself to runs that are short but steeper and gain more confidence and technique. My wife used to sit back on steeps and I got her to drive her skis which made a huge difference.

BTW if the people you ski with shrug their shoulders then they are not showing respect for your attempts which is too bad. They need to be patient while to gain confidence and control.
So, I wasn't in official lessons when I followed the instructors down stuff that scared me. I just got to tag along, and other than a few occasions, actually did pretty well, even if it did take me awhile. My worst times were when I would try to get down something that I had previously skied with a lot of fluff and chop on it, which slows me down, that had been groomed and was smooth. I attempted a few of these on my own, nobody pushing me, and quickly froze, my legs jelly. My boyfriend was the BEST at not even remotely getting me in over my head, even though he witnessed a few meltdowns. They were all on mountains that were new to me, on terrain that was well within my ability.

Fear or anxiety is part of it but only part of it. I am using 'anxiety' here to mean "fear where the basis is *not* understood by the subject" - which might give you part of the answer to the question you're asking.

Another part is that one doesn't have easy access to fully automatic coping skills. The skillset that is fully automatic on lesser terrain (and therefore also 'instinctive' or 'intuitive') gets hidden by anxiety. If this wasn't the case, OP wouldn't start off with *better* skills than the terrain leaders but then get in over her head sooner than they do.

Another part of it is that coping with the need for thoughtful or self-reminded skills also tends to snowball into tentative motions and overanalysis of sensations - which builds more uncertainty. Being under-geared for terrain amplifies this considerably. We have several boot related threads on this forum to demonstrate the possibility OP was very much under-geared for terrain.
You get it. The question is, how do I flip that anxiety switch back?

I won't speak for Amy, (I see she posted her comments relating to this above) But from my perspective, I showed an interest in doing more difficult terrain. Sometimes its not that you're uninterested in doing something that paralyzes you, its a matter of letting go of the paralysis.
I maybe want to do more difficult terrain too much. Because that's where ALL my friends ski, and I get left out quite a lot. And I'm kind of tired of it.

Not sure more emotion is the answer , but if redirection works for you ...




This is completely consistent with working determinedly to expand the envelope, but then losing access to automatic movements, and having off gear amplify the tentativeness of your conscious motions. You simply had more stuff to think about last season - and were therefore closer to overload.

According to my thought-model here, more mileage in that terrain would do the opposite of help.
Yes, with the life anxiety I was dealing with, as Tricia touched on earlier, my mind was NOT in a great place last season. And my boyfriend agreed that putting me on terrain that scared the crap out of me was NOT going to be productive. I was encouraged on more than one occasion by the group to "just go ski it!" and he told them, "absolutely not!" There are plenty of steep blues at Snowbasin to practice on.

Amy, I relate. I experience paralysis and intense fear whenever I think about getting married again. So far nothing’s worked and I find myself side-slipping.

In seriousness, I was exposed to some training in this area as it pertains to athletic performance. One of the elements involved differentiating between fear and adrenaline. Neither feels comfortable but adrenaline can add to performance while fear often detracts. It’s easy to think it’s one when it’s the other. They can both get one to yak. The audience in my situation already understood they performed better with adrenaline but for many what could be positive goes the other way if fear is perceived. And of course they’re often working together. The nice thing for many who were trained this way, it wasn’t long before they were able to channel fear into a perception of adrenaline which they welcomed because it helped them perform at a higher level. Even if this doesn’t really apply to you, maybe it can help you channel fear to some extent.
It might help me to just picture the adrenaline rushing through my blood, I don't know. To try to understand WHAT is happening and use it as a tool. This is actually really helpful. (Loved the fear of marriage reference--I get it!!)

Someone else mentioned that "skiing is supposed to be fun." I realized that I had lost my joy for it last season at some point, which is one of the biggest things I got from Mermer's book--find that joy again! Also, focus on sensations of the terrain, weather, etc. and not just attempting the "perfect turn".

Also, yes to continuing to work on improving. Part of my problem is I am a perfectionist and think that I should always ski extremely well on terrain I am comfortable on. I think I'm better off focusing on just PLAYING out there this year. My daughter is good for that, except she thinks traverses through the woods are a hoot, which I don't. :eek:
 
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AmyPJ

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One more thought.

It's fine to be talking about conquering the fear, but keep in mind that, when you're on top of a steep, icy slope, it's the same as soloing in climbing, ie if you fall, you can die or he seriously hurt.

So you need to accept the consequences. Then, you need to ski it in a manner that will not allow you to fall.

No fall zones are not just exposed slopes over cliffs

On a steep enough slope, 35-40 degrees, if it's icy, you will not be able to self arrest.

So sometimes, the paralyzing fear is ok, it may simply mean that you have a 1 out of 10 chance of falling, and your subconscious tells you that it doesn't like the odds.

So maybe the thing to do is get better at skiing, so you only have a 1 out of 100 chance of falling.
I totally agree with this. It doesn't help that I have a ridiculous fear of heights, and some of the long, steep runs, make my stomach turn over. Trust me when I say, I've been working SO hard at getting better, and I did last season in certain conditions and terrain. Steeps was not in that area of improvement, unfortunately.
 

karlo

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Steep is also relative. But, it's helpful to take some tips from those who ski the more extreme. Wiki Andrew McLean after watching.


Great tips. That was the hop and pivot, which must be done at times. Lot of effort. I like Giulia's hop and pivots at 1:02 much better. So smooth, they don't look like hop turns. In fact, I didn't think they were until a pro looked at it with me.


So, how to do that. Again, me, I would look at the slope as the dance floor, keeping my upper body gliding across it as smoothly as possible, and let the legs do what's needed to keep the feet and skis close to the snow.

Giulia is so cool. I also prefer watching women's ski racing and women's soccer. They are so efficient. No need to muscle it. Us men, we tend to make everything a wrestling match. Done against the mountain, that doesn't usually end well.
 

KingGrump

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Also, yes to continuing to work on improving. Part of my problem is I am a perfectionist and think that I should always ski extremely well on terrain I am comfortable on. I think I'm better off focusing on just PLAYING out there this year. My daughter is good for that, except she thinks traverses through the woods are a hoot, which I don't.

I think you solve your own fear issue. Skiing sound more like work for you now. You have forgotten how to play.
Not every turn have to be perfect. In fact none have to be so long they feel good.
 

karlo

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full-length padded body protection (e.g. Demon FlexForce, Crash Pads 2200) to wear under my ski jacket and pants

I love it! Wear it outside!

I've been looking for white ski jacket and pants. Very out of fashion. I can get a Michelin Tire outfit!
 

wyowindrunner

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An interesting scenario happened at Grand Targhee under the Chief Jo chair (for those who are familiar.) Day 1: foggy, soft and somewhat choppy, but I just went and did fine. I was definitely scared, but I did it. Next day? Sunny, and I could see to the bottom. It's a LONG way down.
You skied the headwall down to Chief Joe Bowl or the south facing stuff off of the Blackfoot lift? In the fog? Either way good for you-Targhee has a lot more fog than sunny days as a rule on the upper third to half of the mountain- just ski those days. Or get some badly scratched googles to simulate the low vis. I have severe problems in those conditions-vertigo-falls are frequent- and have found myself in places I never suspected to be when I can see again. Good to hear that some western experience has given you greater confidence on your home hills. Come back to Targhee and have some more fun in the murk. As an aside, the Blackfoot lift is now a fixed grip triple- some interesting times watching unsuspecting visitors loading... and longer days for the guys working the lift.
 

Blue Streak

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Amy, I relate. I experience paralysis and intense fear whenever I think about getting married again. So far nothing’s worked and I find myself side-slipping.

In seriousness, I was exposed to some training in this area as it pertains to athletic performance. One of the elements involved differentiating between fear and adrenaline. Neither feels comfortable but adrenaline can add to performance while fear often detracts. It’s easy to think it’s one when it’s the other. They can both get one to yak. The audience in my situation already understood they performed better with adrenaline but for many what could be positive goes the other way if fear is perceived. And of course they’re often working together. The nice thing for many who were trained this way, it wasn’t long before they were able to channel fear into a perception of adrenaline which they welcomed because it helped them perform at a higher level. Even if this doesn’t really apply to you, maybe it can help you channel fear to some extent.

Lorenzzo, I too share your fear.
But the fear is bearable with knowledge.
I traveled far and wide, seeking a way forward.
I went so far as to trek to the highest temple in Tibet, where I finally confronted a wizened monk with a gleaming glass eye.
Majestic Everest loomed over his shoulder as I asked him the question, "Master, why is divorce so expensive???"
The wise prophet paused for a moment, then smiled the smile of a thousand suns and replied,
"BECAUSE IT'S WORTH IT!!!!!!!!!"
 

DanoT

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I think you solve your own fear issue. Skiing sound more like work for you now. You have forgotten how to play.
Not every turn have to be perfect. In fact none have to be so long they feel good.

^^^Nailed it!

Unlike a lot of other sports, skiing can be thoroughly enjoyable at any ability level.

The first time I ever went skiing I was shocked. How could I be so rotten at something and yet have so much fun? I was hooked. I also realized early on that I would never be all that great of a skier, so I worked on becoming a great ski bum instead.

I am not a perfectionist, far from it, but if I was I think the answer would be to pick and choose what to be perfect at.

So, imo the best way to deal with fear is avoid fearful situations, i.e. steep runs. Besides, the steepest runs are not really the best powder runs as they take more snow to cover and scrap off quicker than easy blacks and blues.
 

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