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surfsnowgirl

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One thing that helped me last spring was embracing fall cause sometimes it happens. Of course I only wish to do this in powder and spring slush. I think now I'm more likely to push myself a tiny bit if there's cushion underneath me. If it's the usual ice/hard pack I ski on then I will be Ms. Conservative. I'm starting to like the free falling feeling, a tiny, little bit but it doesn't take much to spook me.
 

Wade

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Yes. But don't tell me to fall. I'm in my sixties. I don't need to break a hip PRACTICING FALLS. If I'm breaking a hip, it better be because I really fell!

I'm not in a position to tell you to do anything. I just wanted to better understand what specifically was the basis of the fear.

I hadn't really thought much about it until now. I get a little gripped if something I'm going to ski is really exposed and falling likely has consequences. For something that's just very steep, rightly or wrongly I don't really associate skiing it or potentially falling on it with an increased risk of injury. The only serious skiing injury I've had was on relatively mellow terrain in bad light where I hit a dip that I couldn't see. I might have a different view if I'd hurt myself on a steep run. I guess ignorance can be bliss.
 

dlague

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My first question is, why ski the steeps that scare you? I know you ski with L3 instructors, but they should know better. In addition, they should have the courtesy to recognize your fear. My wife had never skied when we met and it took a couple years skiing greens before she progressed to blues and a few years more before she progressed to easier black trails. Then after skiing from a beginner level to seven years later, I felt she was ready to try steeps, bumps, etc. She does great but I do not expect her to ski steeps and I do not expect her to like the trails I ski. We mix it up. In fact, I often will take a run on steeps on my own to see if I think she can handle it then I coach her the first time. That strategy has worked out great. Now, when we met I was already and advanced skier and I never complained, rather I invested in her abilities. My suggestion would be to ski steepish trails that do not threaten you and learn to ski them well, then expose yourself to runs that are short but steeper and gain more confidence and technique. My wife used to sit back on steeps and I got her to drive her skis which made a huge difference.

BTW if the people you ski with shrug their shoulders then they are not showing respect for your attempts which is too bad. They need to be patient while to gain confidence and control.
 
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cantunamunch

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I'm not in a position to tell you to do anything. I just wanted to better understand what specifically was the basis of the fear..

Fear or anxiety is part of it but only part of it. I am using 'anxiety' here to mean "fear where the basis is *not* understood by the subject" - which might give you part of the answer to the question you're asking.

Another part is that one doesn't have easy access to fully automatic coping skills. The skillset that is fully automatic on lesser terrain (and therefore also 'instinctive' or 'intuitive') gets hidden by anxiety. If this wasn't the case, OP wouldn't start off with *better* skills than the terrain leaders but then get in over her head sooner than they do.

Another part of it is that coping with the need for thoughtful or self-reminded skills also tends to snowball into tentative motions and overanalysis of sensations - which builds more uncertainty. Being under-geared for terrain amplifies this considerably. We have several boot related threads on this forum to demonstrate the possibility OP was very much under-geared for terrain.
 

nay

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How's your turn asymmetry after the boot and other work?

I'm going to hazard a guess that you are prone to stopping on steeps after the "good" turn for fear of being in more consequential terrain on the "bad" side, and then to start again, you have to make the "bad" turn from essentially a standstill. The "out" is then a traverse.

This isn't necessarily easy to see from the outside, because the adaptations that are covering the bad side are exposed by pitch, and that's where you tend to lose turn rhythm.

This also explains the mountain bike. Keep your preferred side in the control position on the pedals for descents and then you only have one edge and not two so no issue. Bet you still prefer MTB high edge turns to one side, though.

Just a hunch ogsmile
 
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mdf

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Traverses scare me, and not in a fun way, way more than the actual skiing. Last year at Whistler there was a great pitch that required an airy traverse to get into. I found swearing repeatedly and loudly helped.

I'm only sort of kidding. I didn't hide it, didn't yell at myself. I reacted for awhile and then did it. Maybe that's "yoga breathing" for guys.
 
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AmyPJ

AmyPJ

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Huh? You mean Sacajawea?

Grand-Targhee-Winter-Trail-Map.jpg
No, I skied all over under Sacajawea last winter, both days. LOVED it! It was the steeps on Chief Joe side.
I don't have any help, but I do have a theory. A lot of us like to be a little bit ... not a lot, just a little ... scared by the terrain. If you aren't one of those people, you are going to focus on the fear and try to make it go away. But "staring" at the fear just makes it worse. Try to accept it and perform through it.

I will often tell my therapy clients something like this:
With practice comes skill,
With skill comes confidence.

I will also suggest imagining what your preferred emotional response to a stressful situation might be. If you were already the wise, experienced, capable person you most aspire to be, how would she deal with the situation? Practice that. Which leads to another favorite phrase: Being awesome takes practice.

So what's happening? We are adapted, exquisitely fine-tuned to be able to respond to perceived dangers or threats. Cortisol is a stress hormone, has a very useful function of enabling rapid thoughts and increased metabolism in order to be physically ready to react. A fabulous evolutionary adaptation, however harmful when done too much and too long. It's like being on "red alert," having the shields up and phasers charged and photon torpedoes loaded, all the time, which stresses the warp core reactor and destabilizes the matter-anti-matter containment field. (Forgive the Star Trek- speak.)

So what do you do?
Act as if you were calm and confident. Strike a powerful pose, like Wonder Woman or Superman. Breathe. Two minutes of that can lower your cortisol levels and thus lower your stress and anxiety. It can also increase testosterone, which is associated with confidence and dominance. Two minutes of this will be a much better result, than 30 minutes of paralysis, I'm willing to bet.

You probably do stuff that is way riskier in terms of speed, chances of direct impact, external factors on a mtn bike than on skis.

I get it, I get gripped in some places usually not because I can't do it but because the consequences are high, I could end in a crevasse or on a long slide. And the times I have ended up in a risky fall its usually because I've been too relaxed and not paying sufficient attention (plus sometimes sh*t happens like a binding breaks). I've no magic recipe other than knowing that thinking about it indefinitely doesn't help. & that there is no shame in stepping out of a line or opting for something easier - skiing is meant to be fun not an ordeal.

Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but for the people who feel fear at the top of a steep run, what specifically are you scared of? Is it a fear that you could get hurt if you fall? Or something else?
Yes, I visualize crashing, getting very hurt (and it doesn't help that I suffered a serious injury on skis in 2015.)

My first question is, why ski the steeps that scare you? I know you ski with L3 instructors, but they should know better. In addition, they should have the courtesy to recognize your fear. My wife had never skied when we met and it took a couple years skiing greens before she progressed to blues and a few years more before she progressed to easier black trails. Then after skiing from a beginner level to seven years later, I felt she was ready to try steeps, bumps, etc. She does great but I do not expect her to ski steeps and I do not expect her to like the trails I ski. We mix it up. In fact, I often will take a run on steeps on my own to see if I think she can handle it then I coach her the first time. That strategy has worked out great. Now, when we met I was already and advanced skier and I never complained, rather I invested in her abilities. My suggestion would be to ski steepish trails that do not threaten you and learn to ski them well, then expose yourself to runs that are short but steeper and gain more confidence and technique. My wife used to sit back on steeps and I got her to drive her skis which made a huge difference.

BTW if the people you ski with shrug their shoulders then they are not showing respect for your attempts which is too bad. They need to be patient while to gain confidence and control.

How's your turn asymmetry after the boot and other work?

I'm going to hazard a guess that you are prone to stopping on steeps after the "good" turn for fear of being in more consequential terrain on the "bad" side, and then to start again, you have to make the "bad" turn from essentially a standstill. The "out" is then a traverse.

This isn't necessarily easy to see from the outside, because the adaptations that are covering the bad side are exposed by pitch, and that's where you tend to lose turn rhythm.

This also explains the mountain bike. Keep your preferred side in the control position on the pedals for descents and then you only have one edge and not two so no issue. Bet you still prefer MTB high edge turns to one side, though.

Just a hunch ogsmile

I quoted all of the above for a response later. I CAN tell by the responses from some of you, that you DO fall into the category of not understanding it at ALL. And that's OK. Maybe you can learn something that you can apply one of these days if you see someone panic. My fear goes beyond what most would consider "rational". All normal thoughts go out the window. I literally CANNOT move. Sometimes, it happens after a few turns, where I almost lose control or struggle to hold a turn, then stop. Then I'm SCREWED.

So, I want to gather some really basic tools that I can use, then test them out. Whether it's a really loud yell (I'm pretty feisty) or just getting angry as all get out. I don't know.

What perplexes me is that the season prior, I was skiing a lot of stuff that last season, I panicked on. :huh:

Anyway, more later. Thanks for the responses!!
 

skimore1

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Amy Pj and Surfsnowgirl, I am gathering that when you are tentative you go into a "protect mode" as do a lot of folks when they get on steeper terrain. and there goes the athletic stance which gives way to a more lean into the hill (inside ski) stance @AmyPJ when you ride your bike your hands have to be downhill and your upper body pretty square with the bottom. I say ride that bike when you're on your ski's. Hands out front (don't let them go from your field of vision(you cant on a bike) and if your on a steep hill on a bike you have to have your weight on your downhill pedal because if your up hill pedal was down it would dig into a steep hill. (hope that wasn't too wordy) Keep in mind your athletic stance ,aggressive, attack mode what ever you call it is where you ultimately want to be. Try aggressive short radius turns or even check turns on moderate terrain until you get it down I think it will help your mindset on more challenging terrain. Hopefully this helps and you haven't heard it all before.Keep us posted and have FUN!
 

tromano

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Things look steeper when standing at the top than they look when you are perpendicular to the slope skiing down. Get your self perpendicular to that slope. It changes the perspective.
 

PTskier

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Amy, what did you find in In The Yikes! Zone that you can work with? It's been a long time since I read it. What steps are in the book that you can use, one by one if needed?

skimore brings up what I call The Skier's Paradox. You must be very aggressive with your positioning and movements to have the control to ski as slowly as you want. You must use the good positioning and movements to engage the ski edges in the snow for control. As he describes, if you get into a defensive position and lean back toward the hill, or sit back on the ski tails, or twist toward the hill, you are killing your ability to control your skiing. Do you swim? Dive? OK, you're on a diving board, ready to plunge in. Or just on the side of the pool in the deep end. If you get defensive and go in too close you risk injury. If you dive out and use the good form you know, you go in smoothly. (Hey, I just invented a new skiing analogy!)

One thing I do remember from Blakeslee's book is to challenge yourself on either terrain or technique, but never both at the same time. Pick your runs as best you can so they are steep within your envelope where you can use good form. As you go on, you will gradually increase your comfort zone on gradually steeper slopes and continue your good form and good control. You can do this even by choosing which side of some runs you pick. Often one side is steeper, one side less steep, your choice.
 

nay

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I CAN tell by the responses from some of you, that you DO fall into the category of not understanding it at ALL. And that's OK. Maybe you can learn something that you can apply one of these days if you see someone panic

ogsmile

If it's full panic attack, I don't think that is the same thing as fear nor is it a head game or probably even a skiing issue.

I've watched my wife freeze on a high wooden suspension bridge, but she has no fear of say mountain heights. Her tool is to stay off high wooden suspension bridges. That's not meant to be unhelpful, because it doesn't necessarily need to be fixed.

One thing that always gets lost, at least in my view, is that none of us have to have a preference for steep terrain. I vastly prefer excellent snow at a lesser pitch than anything steep and consequential, and I only like moderate steeps that are holding enough good snow to effectively take them down at least a level. This is true for me in all mountain sports - I'm pretty naturally a single black diamond type, double black only where it is rated more because of "high alpine natural variances" than pure pitch or exposure, and I have a strong preference to be at least a skill level above the terrain I am engaging.

I watch people across all kinds of sports spend 95% of their mental, physical, and financial resources to conquer that last 5%. That's awesome and the game level continues to increase. I'll still take great snow on L7 terrain every day of the week, especially Tuesdays. Life is a lot easier when you can get your fix without having to climb Everest.
 

Magi

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Lots of great stuff has been communicated so far.

I'll chime in with a recommendation to go work with Mermer Blakeslee out of Windham Mountain in NY. Having had the chance to train with her briefly when I taught at Windham - she's absolutely fabulous. Many thumbs up.

I believe she's done clinics out in Utah (Snowbird?) before, so you might even be able to get her out to you if you can organize a group. Even if you can't make it to her official clinic - she can teach you the same stuff in a private (alone or with your own group).

The updated version of "in the Yikes! Zone" is called "A Conversation With Fear" http://www.mermerblakeslee.com/skiingConversation.html
 

Tricia

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My first question is, why ski the steeps that scare you? I know you ski with L3 instructors, but they should know better. In addition, they should have the courtesy to recognize your fear.
I won't speak for Amy, (I see she posted her comments relating to this above) But from my perspective, I showed an interest in doing more difficult terrain. Sometimes its not that you're uninterested in doing something that paralyzes you, its a matter of letting go of the paralysis.
 

Uncle-A

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As a younger skier I did not have a lot of fear, now as an older skier only three things get to me.
1. Too much speed, and that is odd because I use to be the first one down and now I am the last one down.
2. Being hit by another skier/boarder, it has happened to me and it does scare me.
3. Hidden ICE, skiing the east coast it is a fact of life. A run that skis well one run may be terrible the next time. I have stood at the top of a run that I have made several times and just had to stop for a short time before preceding.

The first two I attribute to old age, the last one may have been most of my skiing life. One thing that helps get me through is knowing that I have good quality and well maintained equipment. The movement to make the edge controlling turns on ICE are the same as I have done many times before. My thoughts of skiing in the west should have a lot less fear of the ICE. Although after reading the thread about "Powder Too Deep" those out west may have other issues. Now I do not know if I have dropped in on the type steep that the OP is talking about but I have skied double black diamond trails in Austria and the NE.
 

mdf

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Amy, I get it that what you are talking about is much more intense than what I have experienced, and at some point "more" stops just being more and becomes different.

But we can only start from our own experience, and hope it suggests places for you to start.
 

cantunamunch

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So, I want to gather some really basic tools that I can use, then test them out. Whether it's a really loud yell (I'm pretty feisty) or just getting angry as all get out. I don't know.

Not sure more emotion is the answer , but if redirection works for you ...


What perplexes me is that the season prior, I was skiing a lot of stuff that last season, I panicked on. :huh:

This is completely consistent with working determinedly to expand the envelope, but then losing access to automatic movements, and having off gear amplify the tentativeness of your conscious motions. You simply had more stuff to think about last season - and were therefore closer to overload.

According to my thought-model here, more mileage in that terrain would do the opposite of help.
 

karlo

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I'm trying to get my head in the right place and start visualization

For me, disciplined observation and practiced visualization has helped a lot.

1. Regardless of gradient, I take note of where the fall line is. I do it before I start and, periodically update as I ski, looking as far as I can. I.e., I am not looking at the trail, I am looking at the mountainside, which puts the fall line(s) before me in context??

2. Regardless of gradient, I visualize what lies before me as a dance floor. Dance floors are flat. On the mountainside, the floor has a vector that is downhill (the fall line). I feel very comfortable with my skiing on a shallower dance floor. When it is steeper, its still just a dance floor. I just do what I know, and it just works.

That's the observation and visualization part. The other part is the application of skills.

Practice getting the turns started really,really early, tipping the skis on edge well before the fall line. The earlier that tipping happens, the shorter the turn can be without a huge unweight and pivot. The unweight and pivot, that's just a huge jump downhill that has to be absorbed, with the possibility of losing control. A nice sort carved turn, with a some rotational input, one can make as nice a turn as one does on shallower ground. Then, one good turn simply begets another, which brings me to state of mind.

Don't think of braking. Think of making a great turn. That will brake you. Then, think of making another great turn. "ahh, (the refreshing drink ahh), that was a great turn, now lets make the next great turn"
 

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