Cuff alignment

[Monster]

Ok, here's what I've experienced. On the true plug boots I've worked on, the soles were too thick (or, heels and toes too tall, if you want to look at it that way) to meet ISO 5355-2005 and had to be reduced to fit in a binding. In other words, unusable (unsafe) off the shelf without modification. You can reduce (plane) the sole, which most fitters seem to do, at least some just to true them, to bring the toe and heel heights into compliance, and/or, you could remove additional extra material from the tops of the toes and heels, which I think is what you're describing, and essentially leave the soles alone. The ZB, and ZJ+ boots I've handled all had material removed at the factory from the tops of the toes and heels and were still left too tall - clearly intentional. These boots come with warning stickers on them - I can post a photo.

They're left out of compliance so race room boot fitters have more options, like canting a sole on a planer and then, yes, the tops of the toes and heels would have to be machined parallel to the sole cant.

Recreational boots come correct to ISO off the shelf, don't carry the warning sticker (no need), and if you planed their soles, you'd have 1mm if you were lucky before be too thin (short) to be compliant and would indeed have to be adjusted back up. I've never needed/wanted to do that.

The ISO standard is:

Heel height: 30mm +/-1, or 29-31mm, bevel length: 15mm +/- 2mm, height 4mm +/- 1mm
Toe height: 19mm +/-1, or 18-20mm, bevel length: 30mm +/- 2mm, height 5mm +/- 1mm

On most boots, the bevels quickly go out of spec from walking in them unless you use Cat Trax or similar religiously.

I happen to have one raw pair of ZA plugs in the house at the moment - they're 2mm too tall but do not have factory machining on the tops of the toes and heels. As I recall, the plugs all came that much too tall. Our modded boots are all true to the ISO.

 

[Ross Biff]

When learning to ski over 50 years ago skiing straight was gliding with the ski flat. If you have some foot issues it made it difficult to keep the ski flat. The boots were made to keep the foot level and you had to adjust your stance to keep the ski flat. Some time in the mid seventies boot manufactures put a half of a degree cant locked into the boot. Not long after people first started putting cant wedges between the ski and binding. The shop I worked used a machine that had two plates to stand on when you had your boot on and it used a set of lights that would show you what size cant to place between the boot and the plate. You would shift your knees back and forth than stand like you are skiing straight, the lights combined with the wedges would eventually show skiing flat. As it turned out I needed a number two cant under one foot and a three cant under the other with the thick side on the cant on the arch side of my foot. That showed that I walked on the outside of my feet and the ware on my shoes would agree. The first time I skied with the cants it was a slight adjustment because I had learned to compensate for that issue but after a few runs I was hooked on cants. They made my skiing smooth and I had to use less effort to keep the ski straight or turn, also the skies had the groove in the bottom back than and that helped the ski track straight. Add to the fact that back than we used a zero - zero grind on the bottom and side edge. The groove also added drag to the ski when sliding the ski sideward, that you would have to overcome when swiveling the ski. Move forward to 1983 and I had a ladder accident and shattered both my heels with enlarged ankle mortice and no cushioning flesh remaining between the heel and ankle. Surgery on the right foot to screw the heel parts back together using 9 screws and two steel plates. The left foot had so many little parts that they just had to just soft cast it and hope for the best. Now the feet are not the same as before the accident so no cants, the shop I worked has closed and the new shop did not have the canting machine so no way of checking except by eye. I do cuff alignment myself on my new boots and use an OTC foot bed. Of course my skiing has never been the same, plus my age over 70 does not lend to a performance skiing. Using new skis with no grove and a one - three grind is not a fair comparison because of the ease of skiing the new equipment. Now I just ski for the basic pleasure of being on the mountain.

Thanks for the detailed break down. Your injury made me re think my alignment. My left for is pretty dialled in but my right is harder to sort out. I did have an ankle break playing soccer in my teens and I'll need to re think it's potential impact. Thanks.

 

[Scrundy]

Without reading all posts I will give you a experience I had. I had a problem with my right foot not tracking well. Ski would want to do it’s own thing very, noticeable on flats and slower speeds.

So I went to a reputable boot fitter, got new boots, foot beds. He went through everything cuff alignment everything. I did notice the cuff alignment on right foot was at max to be properly aligned.

First day I went to ski new boots, same problem. So I posted on this forum what’s been going on and got some good and some bad advice. Bottom line is in the end fix ended up being,I needed to grind my soles of right boot 1.5 degrees. Funny thing is now my cuff alignment is dead center at center of boot adjustment. This also changed my left boot cuff adjustment,so it also is centered in boot at center cuff adjustment. Problem solved no more of that, it was back to skiing and enjoying myself not afraid to die.

 

[markojp]

Ok, here's what I've experienced. On the true plug boots I've worked on, the soles were too thick (or, heels and toes too tall, if you want to look at it that way) to meet ISO 5355-2005 and had to be reduced to fit in a binding. In other words, unusable (unsafe) off the shelf without modification. You can reduce (plane) the sole, which most fitters seem to do, at least some just to true them, to bring the toe and heel heights into compliance, and/or, you could remove additional extra material from the tops of the toes and heels, which I think is what you're describing, and essentially leave the soles alone. The ZB, and ZJ+ boots I've handled all had material removed at the factory from the tops of the toes and heels and were still left too tall - clearly intentional. These boots come with warning stickers on them - I can post a photo.....

(edited for brevity)

......

I work on boots including the plug boots you mention for all the reasons you mention. What am I missing?

 

[Monster]

I would like to know your process and materials for making your own foot bed? If you care to share that information with the community, photos would be great.

Here's a Pugski Media Album of images - maybe easier to peruse:

View media item 2699View media item 2698View media item 2697View media item 2696View media item 2695View media item 2694View media item 2693View media item 2692View media item 2691View media item 2690View media item 2689View media item 2688View media item 2687

 

[mdf]

^^^ I get permission errors.

 

[Monster]

Meh - Adjusted the album privacy settings; better now?

 

[Uncle-A]

Here's a Pugski Media Album of images - maybe easier to peruse:

View media item 2699View media item 2698View media item 2697View media item 2696View media item 2695View media item 2694View media item 2693View media item 2692View media item 2691View media item 2690View media item 2689View media item 2688View media item 2687

That is impressive, nice work, both on the foot beds and the photo documentation.

 

[mdf]

Yes, thanks!

 

[Monster]

That is impressive, nice work, both on the foot beds and the photo documentation.

Thanks - glad you like it. It's taken a while to get it all sorted out, but I'm pretty happy with the protocol now. Have used a number of commercial custom footbeds over the years like Sidas, Instaprint, boot fitters' scratch-built, etc., and experimented with different methods of taking the foot impression. I like the Bio-foam best so far. Getting a good impression is the artful bit - making sure the foot alignment is correct and the pressures are right at different locations to make the best shape for the bottom of the foot. The rest is just mechanics. . .

 

[markojp]

What's the point in the video of measuring her iliac crest width and then having her boot centers at the same width? If one doesn't ski at hip width, there's no point or worse.
_I would object to improper word use - having to move the screws "paradoxically". Otherwise, good video.

To clarify, this puts one's feet under the femur head. This isn't 'hip width' apart.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I’m going to start with cuff and cant are important if needed, IMHO though are over used to correct errors that aren’t really errors, though by correcting them you end up with other issues. It is about technique and adapting (feeling comfortable).

To that point when adjusting, others have already better describe what’s need than I ever can.

So, @AmyPJ mentioned her skis want to go in different directions (I’m going to assume this means squirrelly for sake of example) in cat tracks. This is good. Means you are flat and balanced, the ski is trying to find an edge. Perfect starting place, few actually get there but it does feel weird and unsettling. (Sorry @AmyPJ if this is not the case).

The point is let your body find its rest point after minor adjustments (cuff alignment) your body structure may not allow it to be the ideal (insert ski school text book stance here) but some variation of your bodies range of motion and limitations.

If you can achieve the “I feel like my skis wander in flats when I relax you are likely set up correctly”, now learn to ski correctly. If not than consider canting to get to this stage and then learn to ski.

 

[markojp]

Ski school text book stance. .. right. I'm sorry, but a good, balanced position over one's skis is a universal attribute to all good skiing in all disciplines. Where do you get the idea that there's a special 'ski school stance?

... or Amy's skis could simply be railed or burred. A wandering flat gliding ski isn't 'squirrelly'. Without seeing someone's leg, feet, boot, binding, footbed setup, and seeing their current skiing, it's impossible in my humble experience to evaluate or offer any specific advice about the efficacy of modifying boot alignment one way or the other.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Ski school text book stance. .. right. I'm sorry, but a good, balanced position over one's skis is a universal attribute to all good skiing in all disciplines. Where do you get the idea that there's a special 'ski school stance?

... or Amy's skis could simply be railed or burred. A wandering flat gliding ski isn't 'squirrelly'. Without seeing someone's leg, feet, boot, binding, footbed setup, and seeing their current skiing, it's impossible in my humble experience to evaluate or offer any specific advice about the efficacy of modifying boot alignment one way or the other.

Couple of things in order (yes we are the same page).

Ski school stance, more to do with instructor inexperience causing this, I’ve met too many skiers that try and ski the ski school stance only to be limited and not achieve the intent as it was taught to rigid without the understanding of being balanced. This does not apply to the experienced instructors (of which those on this site fall into) as they adjust the stance to skier body range of motion/build/limitations as proper stance is exactly how you describe.

Squirrelly, wrong choice of words a little to aggressive term, wandering ski is better, too late at night in the posting. My point was it can be unnerving if you have no understanding that you have achieved this in a proper balanced stance.

Last, wasn’t evaluating her skiing (or potential other issues) just using her statement as an example to show it may be something different.

In truth a really good instructor/coach who has boot fitting/tuning experience, and can likely better define and direct what is needed, fits inline with “gotta see it action” to determine the exact cause as you stated, again .

Thanks good clarification of my post.

 

[AmyPJ]

Ski school text book stance. .. right. I'm sorry, but a good, balanced position over one's skis is a universal attribute to all good skiing in all disciplines. Where do you get the idea that there's a special 'ski school stance?

... or Amy's skis could simply be railed or burred. A wandering flat gliding ski isn't 'squirrelly'. Without seeing someone's leg, feet, boot, binding, footbed setup, and seeing their current skiing, it's impossible in my humble experience to evaluate or offer any specific advice about the efficacy of modifying boot alignment one way or the other.

Definitely not railed or burred. I have a fabulous ski tech who works on them for me regularly and checks them all the time
Same tech is also my L3 instructor who has been working on teaching me to carve on cat tracks so they won't feel squirrely.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Definitely not railed or burred. I have a fabulous ski tech who works on them for me regularly and checks them all the time
Same tech is also my L3 instructor who has been working on teaching me to carve on cat tracks so they won't feel squirrely.

Consider that you are balanced and set up correctly, that loose feeling on the skis is good indication of that. Carving gets rid of that loosen as it puts you on edge..

 

[Ross Biff]

Consider that you are balanced and set up correctly, that loose feeling on the skis is good indication of that. Carving gets rid of that loosen as it puts you on edge..

This is a great example. Straight running on a cat track on my SL skis is unnerving but link a few poppy carves and they feel awesome. The same terrain on my GS skis feels much more stable and the 10 meter radius difference is very apparent. It would appear to me that a good, neutral boot set up would feel looser on a smaller radius ski and a not- so- good set up could be a little masked by a longer radius ski. How does that sound?

 

[oldschoolskier]

This is a great example. Straight running on a cat track on my SL skis is unnerving but link a few poppy carves and they feel awesome. The same terrain on my GS skis feels much more stable and the 10 meter radius difference is very apparent. It would appear to me that a good, neutral boot set up would feel looser on a smaller radius ski and a not- so- good set up could be a little masked by a longer radius ski. How does that sound?

Exactly.

I run an extremely aggressive race tune on all my skis. Most that try them find them scary as they seem to try and kill them (some seem to think they are burred, not even close).

When skiing flats I look for that floating lose feeling be it GS or SL skis. The loser they feel the more balanced I am in all directions .

Since this thread is about cuff alignment (boot setup) I’ll bring it back to that. Proper technique with a good cuff alignment (maybe simple good foot beds for stabilization) in most cases should be enough to ski balanced and neutral for most. Consider additional work when evaluated by a good instructor/coach who sees limitations in your technique caused by misalignment overall.

Before anyone says anything there are some that need major work to have issues fixed to get close to being neutral. These are general caused by injury, age or other physical challenges that some face. In their case it is usually a multi step process, align and fit, learn and practice till true limitations stop them and then align and fit again after proper assessment.

Those experienced skip a lot of these steps as they already know where they need to be and general do it all in one shot (most times).

 

[Monster]

And you don't have to run skis dead flat - it only takes a little edge to settle a squirrelly ski.

 

[markojp]

Yeah, my skis are so sharp scalpals envy them, and I'm so bad i make medicine sick. Right.

Old school, you really need to be careful with your advice. Many people ski for years not knowing that their setup isn't doing them any favors. The more days one skis with a commitment to improving one's skiing one has, the more likely that a person and their coach will explore boot set up (including finding a boot that actually flexes properly with their anatomy). Sure, many are fine as they are, but riddle me this; can you tell me off hand the differences in factory angles in say a Head Raptor, a Head 'B' Plug, and a Head Vector?

Respectfully, the subtext in your posts seems to be that folks posting here are sort of talking out their rear. This just isn't the case, nor is there any conspiracy to do unnecessary work for profit.