A nice primer from Ski Racing online....
Any other tricks or thoughts to share, go for it!
Any other tricks or thoughts to share, go for it!
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Cuff alignment
Thread Starter
TS
All that ankle stuff....
If you want equal left and right edge pressure you need equal left and right boot pressure, the best way to get that is to be centered in the cuff. Aligning the cuff is the first step to that happening.
EDIT: I apologize, I thought you said I don't understand (which actually surprised me), not don't underestimate but I will leave that there for clarification to others.
@Philpug Sorry, I should have worded that better. Perhaps the downside of almost always posting from a phone.
Cuff angle is something that I run into a lot. There is a general perception that you can do everything you need from the sole. I don’t have the training to be able to explain why that’s not the right path, but in my experience you have to dial in the cuff angle first or the boots never quite work right.
The story behind the dual adjuster Langes is I realized last year that all my athletes on Langes had the same problem, regardless of gender or experience. We figured out that every one of them had the cuff too far out, but that it couldn’t come in far enough. One athlete had been sole canted partly to fix the cuff angle (I’d point fingers but I don’t know who fit them). One fitter, who fixed some massive knee pain I was having by backing the cuff off (moving it in) slightly and increasing the the sole cant by a half degree, explained to me that if the medial wall of the boot is pushing against the medial side of the leg (over cuffed), it causes the body to favor large muscles over small control/stabilization muscles. Since that mirrored what I was seeing and had hours of video to backup the assertion, I started sending athletes in to her to get the work done. She removed the big rivet, repositioned the cuff as necessary, and replaced the rivet with a Head cuff adjuster. I think a lot of our success was attributable to her and the work she did. Athletes were more balanced, quicker on and off their edges, and able to make recoveries that previously would have resulted in a crash. There was one boy who also needed the work done, but he was skiing so well I didn’t want to change his setup. However, as soon as the new gear comes in, I want to start him off balanced.
Cuff angle is something that I run into a lot. There is a general perception that you can do everything you need from the sole. I don’t have the training to be able to explain why that’s not the right path, but in my experience you have to dial in the cuff angle first or the boots never quite work right.
The story behind the dual adjuster Langes is I realized last year that all my athletes on Langes had the same problem, regardless of gender or experience. We figured out that every one of them had the cuff too far out, but that it couldn’t come in far enough. One athlete had been sole canted partly to fix the cuff angle (I’d point fingers but I don’t know who fit them). One fitter, who fixed some massive knee pain I was having by backing the cuff off (moving it in) slightly and increasing the the sole cant by a half degree, explained to me that if the medial wall of the boot is pushing against the medial side of the leg (over cuffed), it causes the body to favor large muscles over small control/stabilization muscles. Since that mirrored what I was seeing and had hours of video to backup the assertion, I started sending athletes in to her to get the work done. She removed the big rivet, repositioned the cuff as necessary, and replaced the rivet with a Head cuff adjuster. I think a lot of our success was attributable to her and the work she did. Athletes were more balanced, quicker on and off their edges, and able to make recoveries that previously would have resulted in a crash. There was one boy who also needed the work done, but he was skiing so well I didn’t want to change his setup. However, as soon as the new gear comes in, I want to start him off balanced.
BGreen,
Great post. Just to make sure I'm understanding, getting the cuff alignment right is the first thing to do once you put the boot on. Prior to that, you need to get the ankle neutral (insole). If you get the cuff right and then get the ankle right, you might have to redo the cuff.
Sorry if I'm being too literal.
Ken
Great post. Just to make sure I'm understanding, getting the cuff alignment right is the first thing to do once you put the boot on. Prior to that, you need to get the ankle neutral (insole). If you get the cuff right and then get the ankle right, you might have to redo the cuff.
Sorry if I'm being too literal.
Ken
@L&AirC Ken, yes you’re absolutely right, insoles first. Thanks for pointing that out. Generally, when I’m messing with boots it’s to correct alignment problems I see on the hill. I’m not a boot fitter, an alignment expert or anything close, nor do I pretend to be. So perhaps a more honest and accurate statement would be to amend what I wrote with “after insoles are made ...”.
That said, I’m not a big believer that everyone needs custom insoles (insert gasps from the crowd). There is a general assumption that custom insoles are the single most important piece of equipment a skier has. While I don’t like standing in disagreement with trained experts, my experience has been different. I think custom insoles are a crucial tool for a lot of people. However, I believe custom insoles need to be properly molded to do more good than harm, and to be frank I’ve never had a set that were made quite right. I had a rigid pair that were good until they cracked (mid slalom course ), and I’ve made a couple pair that were close. @otto has written at least one article about what insoles should and shouldn’t be, and I agree 100% with him, but I’ve never seen it done. I’ve had the best overall luck with factory insoles.
There are two reasons why insoles come before cuff alignment. First, as should be obvious, the insole changes the way the foot moves, and that has to be accounted for in the cuff position. Conversely, someone may opt not to use a custom insole, and then the cuff alignment also has to take some foot mechanics into consideration. Second, it is important to make sure there is a 1/8” - 1/4” gap between the insole and the shell all the way around. If not, when you add the liner into the equation it will change the shape of the insole and can prohibit articulation.
Where this all came from for me was a discussion I overheard where a rep was explaining the point of the Nordica Aggressors was to compensate for skiers that have a very rigid foot structure. This threw red flags all over the field for me since I knew my posted cork footbeds created a rigid foot. I went into the lodge, took off my boots, tossed my footbeds into my bag, booted up and went skiing. The first few runs I felt like I was driving a race car without lug nuts. After a few runs I got used to it and was quicker on and off an edge. A couple years ago I had a set of insoles made by the fitter that does all the insoles for our academy athletes. I tried to make them work, but they made me so static I could barely ski. At one point I got so frustrated that I stopped in the mid mountain lodge, pulled them out, crammed them in my pocket and went back out. Problem solved immediately.
I know that hundreds of trained boot fitters aren’t wrong, but I think there are more ways to mold insoles wrong than right, and wrong is often worse than nothing. I may try again this fall, at least for my coaching boots (Dalbello DRS 130). @Tricia posted a list of pedorthist boot fitters in the Denver area, and I have a good friend who is a podiatrist who I’m sure would love to make an orthotic for me, but I think she is a believer that the foot should be held in a rigid, neutral position. I’m not messing with my race boots until I’m absolutely convinced custom insoles are better than nothing.
That said, I’m not a big believer that everyone needs custom insoles (insert gasps from the crowd). There is a general assumption that custom insoles are the single most important piece of equipment a skier has. While I don’t like standing in disagreement with trained experts, my experience has been different. I think custom insoles are a crucial tool for a lot of people. However, I believe custom insoles need to be properly molded to do more good than harm, and to be frank I’ve never had a set that were made quite right. I had a rigid pair that were good until they cracked (mid slalom course ), and I’ve made a couple pair that were close. @otto has written at least one article about what insoles should and shouldn’t be, and I agree 100% with him, but I’ve never seen it done. I’ve had the best overall luck with factory insoles.
There are two reasons why insoles come before cuff alignment. First, as should be obvious, the insole changes the way the foot moves, and that has to be accounted for in the cuff position. Conversely, someone may opt not to use a custom insole, and then the cuff alignment also has to take some foot mechanics into consideration. Second, it is important to make sure there is a 1/8” - 1/4” gap between the insole and the shell all the way around. If not, when you add the liner into the equation it will change the shape of the insole and can prohibit articulation.
Where this all came from for me was a discussion I overheard where a rep was explaining the point of the Nordica Aggressors was to compensate for skiers that have a very rigid foot structure. This threw red flags all over the field for me since I knew my posted cork footbeds created a rigid foot. I went into the lodge, took off my boots, tossed my footbeds into my bag, booted up and went skiing. The first few runs I felt like I was driving a race car without lug nuts. After a few runs I got used to it and was quicker on and off an edge. A couple years ago I had a set of insoles made by the fitter that does all the insoles for our academy athletes. I tried to make them work, but they made me so static I could barely ski. At one point I got so frustrated that I stopped in the mid mountain lodge, pulled them out, crammed them in my pocket and went back out. Problem solved immediately.
I know that hundreds of trained boot fitters aren’t wrong, but I think there are more ways to mold insoles wrong than right, and wrong is often worse than nothing. I may try again this fall, at least for my coaching boots (Dalbello DRS 130). @Tricia posted a list of pedorthist boot fitters in the Denver area, and I have a good friend who is a podiatrist who I’m sure would love to make an orthotic for me, but I think she is a believer that the foot should be held in a rigid, neutral position. I’m not messing with my race boots until I’m absolutely convinced custom insoles are better than nothing.
We don't disagree. While I do use custom insoles, and I know my daughter can't ski without them, I'm reading more and more about people saying their injuries decreased when running after they started running without sneakers.
I would like to believe that some of this crosses over to skiing. The foot is an amazing piece of work and I think it is pretty good at the job it has. I also think we should let it do its job, though in skiing, you have to account for the fact are feet aren't designed to be in a plastic boot either.
I could probably ski fine without a custom insole. I would still need cuff alignment and canting. Most bootfitters won't do that without first making sure your insole fits your foot perfectly.
Ken
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2015
- Posts
- 47
BGreen,
In your post you said: Second, it is important to make sure there is a 1/8” - 1/4” gap between the insole and the shell all the way around. If not, when you add the liner into the equation it will change the shape of the insole and can prohibit articulation.
Usually, if the insole is too wide it will climb up the medial wall of the liner and tilt the foot into "inversion" Bad all the way around in so many ways. One of the other problems we see is that some/many brands of boot boards have a small arch built into the medial side, which will push upward in the arch of the foot bed--- if it is flat on the bottom longitudinally, this also pushes the foot into inversion and can be painful. These issues are all involved in interfacing the footbed to the specific boot involved---this a "boot fitter" problem.
Then there is the fore/aft alignment problems we see with many folks caused by how the boot aligns the tibia of the leg in the saggital plane---sore quads and back seat / butt droop, being prominently displayed with this one.
Mike
In your post you said: Second, it is important to make sure there is a 1/8” - 1/4” gap between the insole and the shell all the way around. If not, when you add the liner into the equation it will change the shape of the insole and can prohibit articulation.
Usually, if the insole is too wide it will climb up the medial wall of the liner and tilt the foot into "inversion" Bad all the way around in so many ways. One of the other problems we see is that some/many brands of boot boards have a small arch built into the medial side, which will push upward in the arch of the foot bed--- if it is flat on the bottom longitudinally, this also pushes the foot into inversion and can be painful. These issues are all involved in interfacing the footbed to the specific boot involved---this a "boot fitter" problem.
Then there is the fore/aft alignment problems we see with many folks caused by how the boot aligns the tibia of the leg in the saggital plane---sore quads and back seat / butt droop, being prominently displayed with this one.
Mike
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2017
- Posts
- 22
I think this started out with cuff alignment ... so what would I do given I've maxed out the cant angle on a boot and there's still a pretty good off-center alignment? Should I shim or pad the tighter clearance side of the shell to bring the boot back to center?
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2015
- Posts
- 47
Dorm,
We can't see your set up from here so making recommendations is like shooting in the dark
Dare I ask?----could you post some pics of your legs in the boot shells standing on your footbeds with your heels all the way in the back of the shell?
And then a pic of just your lower legs standing on your footbeds from both the front and side. We might then be able to see some issue and make a recommendation.
Have someone else take the pics from an appropriate distance please.
By the way, if you place the boots on a clean solid surface and then push downward on the medial and then the lateral edge of the toe lug, does the boot rock sideways at all?
Mike
Master boot fitter/ Cped.
We can't see your set up from here so making recommendations is like shooting in the dark
Dare I ask?----could you post some pics of your legs in the boot shells standing on your footbeds with your heels all the way in the back of the shell?
And then a pic of just your lower legs standing on your footbeds from both the front and side. We might then be able to see some issue and make a recommendation.
Have someone else take the pics from an appropriate distance please.
By the way, if you place the boots on a clean solid surface and then push downward on the medial and then the lateral edge of the toe lug, does the boot rock sideways at all?
Mike
Master boot fitter/ Cped.
Last edited:
Just came across this video from team Gut. Thought this was an appropriate thread to link it.
I sometimes question the importance of cuff alignment or canting except in the high level or extreme cases.
Has anyone intentionally, changed the cuff at the end of season and skied a new season on same said misaligned cuffs? Toward the end of the season have the cuffs aligned correctly and what would be the result. If there’s an improvement then it’s important, if not maybe it not.
Now my cuffs are aligned and I like my boots the way they are so count me out as your test subject
.
Has anyone intentionally, changed the cuff at the end of season and skied a new season on same said misaligned cuffs? Toward the end of the season have the cuffs aligned correctly and what would be the result. If there’s an improvement then it’s important, if not maybe it not.
Now my cuffs are aligned and I like my boots the way they are so count me out as your test subject
.
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2015
- Posts
- 24,856
What's the point in the video of measuring her iliac crest width and then having her boot centers at the same width? If one doesn't ski at hip width, there's no point or worse.
_I would object to improper word use - having to move the screws "paradoxically". Otherwise, good video.
_I would object to improper word use - having to move the screws "paradoxically". Otherwise, good video.
With boots with sliding cuff alignment bolts, I've had skiers get into their boots (liners in) & buckle in, stand in their skier's stance on a hard floor, I loosen the alignment & spine bolts, they flex up & down a few times and stop in the middle of their flex range, and I tighten the bolts. This sets the cuffs to match their lower legs.
My current boots have inserts for the cuff alignment. The choices are 0°, 1°, and 2°. Inverting the insert gives -1° or -2°. Any combination on the inserts on either side can give the alignment one wants as well as a change in the shaft angle of the boot. I know that I'm not far out of leg alignment. Maybe 0, maybe a half degree. I set the inserts so that, liners in & buckled up, I can rock side to side on the soles and either hit the both soles on the flat floor at the same time or maybe inside edges just very slightly make contact before the soles are flat on the floor. I like the way these boot ski set up this way. If I needed real leg alignment, real canting of the soles would be necessary, not just cuff so-called canting. I need new posted footbeds to match the changes in my feet & ankles through the years--I'll check the alignment of my cuffs after that (if I can find where I put the unused inserts).
In the Head video with Laura Gut, race boots are made with non-spec soles. They must be planed to spec, and they have extra material so they can be planed to the racer's canting needs as well as to spec. Here's an example from Tecnica; the yellow sticker on the sole shows that it is not to spec and must be planed:
https://www.tecnicausa.com/product-...3&world=1&product_uid=166616&color_number=BLK
My current boots have inserts for the cuff alignment. The choices are 0°, 1°, and 2°. Inverting the insert gives -1° or -2°. Any combination on the inserts on either side can give the alignment one wants as well as a change in the shaft angle of the boot. I know that I'm not far out of leg alignment. Maybe 0, maybe a half degree. I set the inserts so that, liners in & buckled up, I can rock side to side on the soles and either hit the both soles on the flat floor at the same time or maybe inside edges just very slightly make contact before the soles are flat on the floor. I like the way these boot ski set up this way. If I needed real leg alignment, real canting of the soles would be necessary, not just cuff so-called canting. I need new posted footbeds to match the changes in my feet & ankles through the years--I'll check the alignment of my cuffs after that (if I can find where I put the unused inserts).
In the Head video with Laura Gut, race boots are made with non-spec soles. They must be planed to spec, and they have extra material so they can be planed to the racer's canting needs as well as to spec. Here's an example from Tecnica; the yellow sticker on the sole shows that it is not to spec and must be planed:
https://www.tecnicausa.com/product-...3&world=1&product_uid=166616&color_number=BLK
Last edited:
At the start of the video it said to put the foot bed in the shell. Are they saying remove it from the liner and put it in the shell or are they talking about the base of the boot that the manufacture puts between the shell and the liner?
I'm not a bootfitter but I have spent too many days in ski boots. Yes, remove your custom footbed from your liner & set it centered in the shell without the liner. I believe the other removable part you are referring to is called the Zeppa or Boot Board which also plays a role in proper boot balancing.
I REALLY need to dial this stuff in myself this season. I can't ski straight, flats and cattracks terrify me at times, as I feel like the skis want to go different directions. It messes with my head and subsequently, my confidence.
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