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CSIA Interski Technical Comparison

jimtransition

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Whatever? Ok.

KSIA. Let us know when they have a big mountain, freeride, park, skier cross, or world cup win... ok, I'll settle for a top 10 in any of the above. Athletic? Yes. Interesting? In it's own narrow way. Efficient? Their function follows form. I'd rather look toward other examples as models where form follows function. Demo tech skiing as a national end doesn't seem to translate into any other international skiing metrics seems to illustrate a shortcoming.

Have to disagree with you here, tech comps are essentially a different sport to racing, if that's the route to financial success in a country it makes sense that would be the dominant discipline. It's like why the US doesn't do well at rugby, very similar skills to football, but if no-one plays, and you don't get paid, how are you going to get good?

Personally, tech comps are one of the few disciplines of skiing that I haven't competed in, but I still respect the level of skill that the athletes display. Did you go to any of the comps whilst you were in Japan? Every one of the top 40 skiers just at the Hokkaido regionals is a better bump skier than anyone I have seen in PSIA (and I have skied with most of the demo team).
 

markojp

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I wish I would have never posted in this thread as it's clear I didn't express myself well. Yes, I've been to a tech comp, but it was years ago. I've also had an old German acquaintance go to Japan to race when they had a nascent pro dual format circuit and went the tech route following the money and ended up being featured in some Ski Journal type vids in the early/mid 90's. (Gundy Thoma)

Let me attempt to clarify. First, yes, these guys and gals are great skiers. If the money were in racing, some would have done very well there. In the cases of both Korea and Japan, historically, tech comps have appeared to be the primary driver of ski technique and discussion. In Europe, the US, and Canada, they aren't a part of ski culture but some like Richard B have been embraced by the Japanese tech world. That said, there are fine athletes in other glissading disciplines in Japan. Some of the absolutely best telemarkers I've ever skied with are from Japan. Bump skiing is a big deal, and as mentioned in another post on this thread, snowboarding, nordic jumping, and nordic combined are very much at world class level. I think I've also said, but perhaps not clearly enough, that the Japanese tech comp world has had a large and interesting influence on guys like Paul L, Reilly M, and Tom G., and with cheap airfares, Japan has had a huge positive influence on the Australian ski world. (And I do agree that the Japanese tech skiers are great bumpers!)

What I will say is that tech comps seem to create a stylized 'kata' form of skiing that creates it's own weather. The extended arms (that seem to be required) are very much about compensating for the use of inclination through the entire arc (medium and large radius turns), and along with often quick, sharp retraction moves, to help everyone move over the old outside ski. Many ski with the shoulders and hips following the direction of the skis across the hill which to me creates blockage from travelling down the hill. Now does all that mean I wouldn't love to ski with Takao Murayama, pick his brain, and try the stuff he talks about? Not a bit. I've been through a bunch of Japanese tech video to both watch and listen. He's an amazing athlete who can ski pretty much however he wants. Skiing is skiing and it's all great stuff. None of my critique of tech ski culture was intended in disrespect, but in my initial flippant reply, it came off as such and somehow wound up in some nasty weeds that deeply saddened me. I own that.

On a last note in retrospect of my experience in Japan, I can say that the technical achievement drive and hierarchy in alpine skiing I experienced with friends working on their level certificates while greatly admirable, were IMHO detrimental in many other regards. In my observation, many lacked versatility. This wasn't the case for a friend on the Japanese demo team who clearly told me that skiing comps is sort of it's own thing. He could do whatever he wanted on snow, and he was kind enough to ask me to coach a couple of telemark camps with him . If I had a 100 yen coin for every deep powder ski day friends missed because of needing to stand inline to take a clinic that the clinician clearly missed the opportunity of the day, I could buy you a fantastic dinner in Tokyo with an open bar tab. Final form took precident over opportunity, and form impeded versatility (function) of many people I knew who were very good skiers working incredibly hard to get better. I know this is changing in Japan. Murayama's skiing and discussion tells me as much, and to repeat, some of the women in the Japanese tech scene are amazing and SHOULD get more attention in the ski world. My critique doubtlessly can be applied to PSIA, but PSIA isn't the primary driver or focus of ski technique in the US. In recent years has become more of a clearing house and distillery of ideas common to all disciplines of sliding on snow. The Japanese tech/instructional ski world appears to be undergoing changes as well as I see clear differences in their skiing at Bansko vs. Innsbruck as displayed at Interski. I thought the Bansko sessions were really interesting!

Now admittedly, I don't know a ton about what's going on in Korea. I don't speak Korean, so I can't follow the discussion as acutely. There's some older video shot by Yaz Kawasaki (CSIA/CANSI) of CSIA and KSIA skiing together at Whistler. Have a look. It's pretty interesting stuff. I'd also say to do a comparison of Ted L's and any one of the top KSIA folks arm movements and snow/ski interaction. Also look where the KSIA guys are looking and what it does to their alignment and directional travel. And yes, terrain and snow conditions do influence focus. I do admire the athleticism of their demonstrations, but my thought was that for preparing for PSIA L3, it would be pretty easy to misinterpret and trade complexity of upper body movement for efficacy of focus on what the skis are doing on the snow. When I wrote the reply you quoted, I didn't have time and was simply frustrated. I shouldn't have been and should have not posted at all. I had a bit of time this morning, and hopefully have given a more clear explanation. If not, it's probably best that I bow out of future instructional discussion.
 
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LiquidFeet

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....but PSIA isn't the primary driver of ski technique in the US. In recent years has become more of a clearing house and distillery of ideas common to all disciplines of sliding on snow. ....
Great post, very thorough and to the point.

Marko, can you say more about PSIA not being the "primary driver" of ski technique in the US? Do you think there is a "primary driver" or that one is advantageous in any way?

I'm not sure what being a "clearing house and distillery of ideas" means. Do you mean that PSIA is promoting ideas that contradict each other because they come from various sources? Does PSIA pass on stuff from other sources that aren't working with each other to create an integrated whole? This matches my understanding of "clearing house" which may be wrong.
 

markojp

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I don't know that they're contradictory, but they do encompass information from racing (USSA/USteam coaching), tech, free and slope style, and integrate alpine, telemark, and snowboarding into the thinking of our national organization whose primary focus is teaching. I think the confusion comes from our need for the 'concrete' within an ever changing set of variables that are skiing/telemark/snowboarding, gear, age demographics, and exacerbated by the unevenness of understanding among local training staffs. It's also human nature, and specific to our culture in the US, the persistent tension between centralized vs. regional hierarchies of emphasis and organization.

What's really cool around here is the cross pollinization between groups of friends and acquaintances across the spectrum of disciplines. A cool story that was in one of the deleted posts worth repeating, a group of us were at Timberline a couple weeks ago and were fortunate enough to watch Mikaela for the last 2-3 laps of her daily training block both Sat and Sun. Everyone including US Team womens speed team, US Team bumpers, freeride kids, junior and master racers stopped to watch when she pushed away from the start gate. Everyone's reaction was the same... a smile and a "wow". It was proof for me that we're all looking at the best in all glissading disciplines, and it all trickles 'through' not 'down'. :) We distill* and take what we need when we can from where we are able, and most importantly, when we're ready.

(* this is where I think the emergence of the 5 fundamentals as a framework for distilling discussion are useful. 'Clearing house' to me sounds like a warehouse of ideas... some valued, and old models passed along at steep discounts. Maybe that's right too, particularly as received at the local level. )
 
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markojp

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Have to disagree with you here, tech comps are essentially a different sport to racing, if that's the route to financial success in a country it makes sense that would be the dominant discipline. It's like why the US doesn't do well at rugby, very similar skills to football, but if no-one plays, and you don't get paid, how are you going to get good?

Exactly! I think I said more or less the same thing in a post that got deleted. "Follow the money". The lack of funding for alpine racers at the international level in Japan is a shame. To my understanding, it's much worse than even the US.
 

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