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coskigirl

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Does the Forest Service even look at skier safety or are they looking just at forest land impact?
 

tball

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Conversely, I haven't skied Keystone or Vail in years (and never Snowmass) but I don't think it's that bad at Copper. I often choose Frank's Fave as my last little pitch into Center Village which is usually pretty empty.

Yeah, I thought about suggesting widening and better signage for Frank's Fave. Most don't know it's even there. But then I like it the way it is. :decisions:

Does the Forest Service even look at skier safety or are they looking just at forest land impact?

I think they look at everything. The 2013 Master Development Plan has a whole section about density anslysis:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5333378.pdf

Copper is not too crowded, per standards, but there is still an opening for a case about the egress trails at the end of the day:

The density figures set forth show that for most of the individual lift/trail systems, the actual trail densities are lower than the target design criteria. The exceptions to this are the Kokomo and Pitchfork areas, where the actual density is higher than the target density. These are both novice teaching areas. The implication of this is a slight over-utilization of the terrain off those lifts, indicating that opportunities should be pursued to develop additional teaching terrain, if practical. The average density numbers for the overall resort are listed along the bottom row of Table 4-7. These averages have been weighted for the lift system‘s CCC. When compared with industry standard criteria, the actual average skier densities experienced at CMR are approximately 65% of the acceptable standard. This is an indication that, on the average, trail crowding is not a common occurrence at CMR. Note that specific trails, such as egress trails towards the end of the day, can consistently have high densities. However, the low density numbers also indicate under-utilization of the existing terrain, indicating that there may be more skiers than necessary waiting in lift lines or on slow lifts. This can indicate an opportunity to upgrade existing lifts and/or install new lifts within the existing boundaries of the resort, without creating undesirably high skier densities

Here's an interesting table from the MDP showing the density of the different lift pods relative to target densities:

Copper_Skier_Density_Per_LIft_Pod.jpg
 

coskigirl

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Yeah, I thought about suggesting widening and better signage for Frank's Fave. Most don't know it's even there. But then I like it the way it is. :decisions:

I'm with you, I hesitated to mention it because it's like a peaceful respite in the end of my day.
 

tball

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How would folks react to something like this:

To promote skier safety, the American Eagle lift runs at 60% speed from 3-4pm each day. During these times, advanced skiers should consider repeat skiing on the Super Bee, and beginner and intermediate skiers on the American Flyer and Union Creek lifts. We suggest slower and less experienced skiers also consider downloading on the gondola portion of the American Eagle for end-of-day egress.
Just an idea.



 

Mike King

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@tball that might be a good idea, but you should also consider that most guests do not ski to the end of the day. Isn't the real issue likely to be the draining of the upper mountain, some of which is served by other lifts (like the Super Bee, Sierra, Excellerator, Copper Bowl, etc.) in addition to the loading from the increased lift capacity of the two lifts? Perhaps the mountain needs more flexibility to control crowding and perhaps some other tools, such as fences with offset gates in addition to the ability to slow lifts?
 

Uncle Louie

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How would folks react to something like this:

To promote skier safety, the American Eagle lift runs at 60% speed from 3-4pm each day. During these times, advanced skiers should consider repeat skiing on the Super Bee, and beginner and intermediate skiers on the American Flyer and Union Creek lifts. We suggest slower and less experienced skiers also consider downloading on the gondola portion of the American Eagle for end-of-day egress.
Just an idea.



I was thinking something like this as I was reading the thread. They could either close the lifts out of the base a little early or run upper lifts a little later or some combination of the 2.

I wonder if anything could be done with the bus routes? Perhaps increase direct bus service to the free lots from areas away from the base of the new lifts to get people to the lots faster and decrease crowds at the base.
 

DanoT

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Does the Forest Service even look at skier safety or are they looking just at forest land impact?

I was wondering pretty much the same thing as it seems to me that the Forest Service's area of expertise has nothing to do with developing or running a ski resort.

The B.C. Forest Service only gets involved in British Columbia ski resorts if you want to cut runs (or remove diseased or danger trees) and that is because the Province of B.C. owns the land and the trees on it. They certainly don't tell ski industry people how to manage ski resorts although the resorts do operate under government approved Master Plans and permits.
 

UGASkiDawg

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I don't think the end of day rush has changed much. Pretty scary, but probably still better than most areas. It could get much worse with the increased uphill capacity of the new lifts:

The American Eagle Lift, a high-speed quad, will be replaced with a Leitner Poma high-speed lift that includes a combination of both 6-person chairs and 8-person gondola cabins. The new lift will increase uphill capacity by over 40 percent, allowing more skiers and snowboarders access to an abundance of Copper’s intermediate terrain.
http://www.coppercolorado.com/culture/news/resort-updates/new-american-eagle-chairlift

A Leitner Poma high-speed 6-person chair with bubble enclosures is set to replace the high-speed quad known as the American Flyer lift, offering a more comfortable ride and a 33 percent increase in uphill capacity. The new lift will primarily serve the easy and intermediate side of the resort’s unique naturally-divided terrain and also will provide expedited access to Copper’s advanced high alpine bowls.
http://www.coppercolorado.com/culture/news/resort-updates/new-american-flyer
Questions for all:

Do Aspen, Vail and Keystone allow downloading on their gondolas at all times? At some point, I could see taking our kiddos up to ski laps on the Excellerator then downloading to avoid the dangerous trip to the bottom.

Is there any precedent for running a lift slower at the end of the day?

Are requirements like these something the Forest Service would consider imposing?


I ski Copper all the time and can't remember seeing a rush at the end of the day...at lunch time yes. IME most skiers are done skiing by 1-2pm and in the bar or on the road back to Denver. I quite often only ski from 1-4 simply because it's the least crowded part of the day except for 8:30-9:30.
 

SBrown

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I ski Copper all the time and can't remember seeing a rush at the end of the day...at lunch time yes. IME most skiers are done skiing by 1-2pm and in the bar or on the road back to Denver. I quite often only ski from 1-4 simply because it's the least crowded part of the day except for 8:30-9:30.

I don't usually ski til the end of the day, either, but when I do, these are my observations. Copper has enough base areas that people seem to be decently spread out.
 

tball

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I was wondering pretty much the same thing as it seems to me that the Forest Service's area of expertise has nothing to do with developing or running a ski resort.

The B.C. Forest Service only gets involved in British Columbia ski resorts if you want to cut runs (or remove diseased or danger trees) and that is because the Province of B.C. owns the land and the trees on it. They certainly don't tell ski industry people how to manage ski resorts although the resorts do operate under government approved Master Plans and permits.

The US Forest Service has pretty broad authority in deciding how ski areas are developed on Forest Service land. Copper's Master Plan goes into lots of detail and does mention safety:

The enabling authorities for the Forest Service are contained in many laws enacted by Congress and in the regulations and administrative directives that implement these laws.4 These authorities allow the Forest Service to provide recreation opportunities to facilitate the use, enjoyment, and appreciation of National Forests. The Forest Service is authorized to approve certain uses of NFS lands under the terms of SUPs. Generally, SUPs for recreational developments are issued and administered for uses that serve the public, promote public health and safety, and provide land stewardship.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5333378.pdf

I think that's a good thing. The Forest Services seems to take a longer-term view, thankfully, as owners of the ski area can change frequently and have differing priorities. We've seen this has happened a number of times at Copper over the last 20 years. You really don't want your tenants deciding what color to paint the walls of a rental. ogsmile

The Master Plan even controls the architectural design:

The architectural design of planned new, and expanded, structures on NFS lands would be subject to Forest Service review and approval during future project proposal.

I love the new Koko's Hut that just opened this weekend at the top of the awesome new Kokomo Express Lift out of the beginner base. Thanks Copper for those great upgrades!

MVIMG_20180317_134416 (1).jpg

It's worth noting those upgrades were approved in 2002 and just completed this year. :(







 

UGASkiDawg

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I heard that Copper is not going to sell Eagle and Flyer as whole lifts in the secondary market due to how fast they want them out and will sell them off as parts. I guess you have go more slowly and carefully pulling them out if you are going sell the lift as a whole system and they are in a rush with two replacements going in.
 

tball

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I ski Copper all the time and can't remember seeing a rush at the end of the day...at lunch time yes. IME most skiers are done skiing by 1-2pm and in the bar or on the road back to Denver. I quite often only ski from 1-4 simply because it's the least crowded part of the day except for 8:30-9:30.

I don't usually ski til the end of the day, either, but when I do, these are my observations. Copper has enough base areas that people seem to be decently spread out.

Yeah, overcrowding might not be an argument that flies. Even with the new lift capacity added to the density numbers in the MDP, the skier density in the Eagle and Flyer terrain pods is still below industry standards. If safety was a concern getting rid of a month of WROD and/or the SuperPipe would be the first step. :duck:

So, anything else to push for in comments to the Forest Service? Any objections or just bring on the new lifts?
 
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UGASkiDawg

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Yeah, overcrowding might not be an argument that flies. Even with the new lift capacity added to the density numbers in the MDP, the density is still below industry standards. If safety was a concern getting rid of a month of WROD and/or the SuperPipe would be the first step. :duck:

So, anything else to push for in comments to the Forest Service? Any objections or just bring on the new lifts?

All systems go as far as I'm concerned! Get these two done and then do Tucker!
 

tball

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I heard that Copper is not going to sell Eagle and Flyer as whole lifts in the secondary market due to how fast they want them out and will sell them off as parts. I guess you have go more slowly and carefully pulling them out if you are going sell the lift as a whole system and they are in a rush with two replacements going in.

Not sure there is much of a market for used high-speed quads, especially at their age. Here's an interesting post about used lifts:
https://liftblog.com/2015/10/31/374-lifts-that-arent-where-they-used-to-be/

He's got a nice spreadsheet of used lifts in service. Relatively few HS lifts have been reused:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...ZMdAMoA-0B4/pubhtml?gid=132622484&single=true

I guess all the HS quads at Breck and Vail are in the scrapyard that have been replaced by six packs?

The Flyer certainly needs a paint job if were to be reused ogsmile (with the new coaster in the foreground):

MVIMG_20180317_174045.jpg

MVIMG_20180317_173918.jpg

And the Eagle with the SuperPipe:

IMG_20180317_175414 (1).jpg

IMG_20180317_174735.jpg
All systems go as far as I'm concerned! Get these two done and then do Tucker!
Not sure if it was mentioned in this thread, but Copper posted on FB that the Tucker lift won't be going in this summer. At least one more year of fresh tracks next year.
 
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SBrown

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....It's worth noting those upgrades were approved in 2002 and just completed this year. :(

There is a bunch of stuff that was approved in the 70s and still hasn't happened ...
 

tball

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And it probably wouldn't be a shocker for me if Lumberjack gets upgraded before Tucker happens.
I'm all for the Lumberjack upgrade!

Our kiddos hate the Lumberjack Lift. It's "soooooo sloooowwwww." They are already spoiled by the new HS Kokomo, but it's getting overcrowded there and the terrain above on Lumberjack is very much underutilized. I was impressed they skied 5577 vertical feet on Kokomo and Lumberjack Saturday!

Re-live_Your_Day___flaik.jpg

With our kiddos skiing there I very much appreciate the planned beginner side upgrades. The oft-cited "naturally divided" terrain at Copper is the real deal. With the previously approved lift, terrain, and snowmaking improvements on the beginner side of the mountain, Copper will have what likely will be the best learning terrain anywhere. These upgrades were also approved by the Forest Service in 2002. ;)

Figure_5_-_Upgrade_Plan_800sc_ai.jpg
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/whiteriver/landmanagement/planning/?cid=STELPRDB5333326
 
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DanoT

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To me it looks like Copper is getting ready for the 2019 Ikon Pass Invasion. I plan to be part of that invasion.
 

UGASkiDawg

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I'd forgotten about the N lift. I'd rather see that than the Tucker or Lumberjack upgrade but it should go all the way up next to the base of Storm King.
 

coskigirl

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I'd forgotten about the N lift. I'd rather see that than the Tucker or Lumberjack upgrade but it should go all the way up next to the base of Storm King.

Oh, I didn’t know about the N lift! I like the idea of not having to go all the way to the base to get from Sierra to Solitude!
 

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