Clendenin method camps//

Discussion in 'Ski School' started by Codger, Feb 23, 2018.

  1. LiquidFeet

    LiquidFeet Out on the slopes Instructor

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    We are having a fun conversation here, complete with civil disagreements, but the OP has not responded.

    @Codger, are you getting any information that is useful to you?
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
  2. DavidSkis

    DavidSkis Thinking snow Skier

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    This is absolutely great skiing for what it is. You're doing a great job skiing at a moderate speed, generally staying over the skis, using a lot of steering to bring them through the fall line. I would not be able to ski the same way with this level of refinement.

    At the same time, this is not advanced or expert speed. My whole point is the mechanics of turning up the hill introduce issues at advanced or expert speeds. That's where I think Clandenin creates some issues.

    I'm just saying that you, LF, and the demo team appear to either say or demonstrate the same thing. If you think that you and LF and the demo team do not generally march to the beat of the same drum, I'm really confused. :huh: Regarding the great white north: there's a standard Canadian technical reference. I'm not saying everyone skis exactly the same across the entire country (the differences are most apparent between eastern and western Canada, and dated vs newer certified instructors), but having a reference at least creates a starting point for a common understanding.
     
  3. LiquidFeet

    LiquidFeet Out on the slopes Instructor

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    ..... never mind. Misunderstood you; posted in response before checking for understanding.
     
  4. Josh Matta

    Josh Matta Making fresh tracks Instructor

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    so speed and dynamics make something expert level? Anyone who ski slows can not be an expert?
     
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  5. DavidSkis

    DavidSkis Thinking snow Skier

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    I don't think I'm interested in engaging further with you on this as you seem more interested in arguing than in discussing.
     


  6. Josh Matta

    Josh Matta Making fresh tracks Instructor

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    wow yeah no I am just trying to point out that speed and dynamics should nt determine someones skill level......its elistist gate keeping and nothing more.
     
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  7. LiquidFeet

    LiquidFeet Out on the slopes Instructor

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    PSIA does have manuals that describe things skiers should do and not do. But they are IMO "fuzzy" and open to interpretation. PSIA instructors do not all ski the same, do not initiate their turns all the same way, and even disagree about what a good initiation consists of. My experience is that examiners do agree mostly, but not level 3s, not L2s and certainly not level 1s. So yeah, you'll encounter differences of opinion here. It's just the way it is.

    Like you, I used to yearn for total consistency. I still do in some ways. But I've discovered that creating, maintaining, and enforcing that consistency has major issues. There are advantages to tolerating, and even celebrating, diverging approaches to ski instruction and personal skiing.

    Diversity rocks.
     
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  8. François Pugh

    François Pugh Out on the slopes Skier

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    Context is important. Balancing over the old inside ski and weighting it prior to initiating the new turn IS a good way to eliminate a stem habit. Also not a hindrance to "expert" skiing; reportedly (see numerous posts/threads regarding shifting weight to new outside ski early, prior to edge change) at the forefront of GS racing for quick engagement of new outside ski. Of course I'm not in favour of twisting the skis; I'm a carvaholic. However, I give the devil his due.
     
  9. Magi

    Magi Instructor Instructor

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    The point you are making is not the point that Mr. Clendennin is making.
     
  10. jack97

    jack97 Getting off the lift Skier

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    ^^^ I see an occasional upper body rotation when he weights the inside ski while in the flats but once Clendenin is in the bumps it goes away. I always thought it to be an exaggerated move to quickly get on the inside edge,harder to do in the flats but easier in the bumps. Putting the upper rotation aside how is it different than the drill being taught some race coaches?

     
  11. WadeHoliday

    WadeHoliday Getting on the lift Skier

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    wowsa, this thread reminds me of divisive ones from the old psia vs pmts days on epic...

    I sure hope speed and dynamics don't determine expert skiing... whew, what if people like to ski slowly, smoothly and massage the snow. Shouldn't we use the movements we find to work best to experience the sensations we enjoy? I love the way Clendin massages the snow in his skiing, and he is trying to share his secrets for creating that image/feeling. Seems valid to me. Liquid feet also mentioned that the method doesn't seem so focused on separation, and I agree. So many adult skiers are quite tight in the hips and core, and they can be great skiers and enjoy there snowplay time without dramatic separation.

    seems expert skiing is on a continuum from pure pivot sideslip to clean 2 footed arc and all blends and speeds in between. It seems how fast we go and how much we drift or carve is determined by our intent and the line we want to travel on and the sensations we want to feel as we enjoy our snow play!

    Cheers,
    W
     
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  12. Magi

    Magi Instructor Instructor

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    It is there in the bumps too Jack. I see it pretty clearly that his shoulder moves before anything else in his "Ribbon turns" video. I've seen it in other demonstration videos by him. It's the pattern to his movement and he does it in just about every turn.

    In the drill video you posted, the move is forward at the start of the turn, not a rotary move.
     
  13. jack97

    jack97 Getting off the lift Skier

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    Hmm... moving forward, rotary movement, that does sound like a throw back to the old forum wars.

    Maybe the shoulder leads but its hard to see because he uplifts his weight and he poles off to his shoulders early. My take on this is JC weights his inside ski to initiate his ankle and knee early to get that uphill movement going sooner. So whats the harm if you doing this in soft snow that is spaced out? His students want to learn how to ski around the bumps and not go for certification level.

    BTW, I heard a former WC and Olympic medalist practicing the inside leg drill on the bumps, we surmise that he was using that inside leg to get to the bump location he wanted before he released via his extension. It wasn't for speed control but more for setting up his next turn. Again, whats the harm in that?
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  14. Mike King

    Mike King AKA Habacomike Instructor

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    It isn't fair to take one demonstrators skiing and interpret it as the method advocated by the organization they are affiliated with. Just this past week, I skied with two current members of the PSIA demo team who were specifically instructing our group NOT to turn across the hill for exactly the reasons you identified.

    Mike
     
  15. Magi

    Magi Instructor Instructor

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    Jack we may simply have different opinions about how sking does/should work. If so, cool, and agree to disagree.

    I believe that the goal of skiing is to move with your skis down the slope to go places.

    I believe that rounder turns [turns where the force and direction change are spread more evenly around the arc] are (all else equal) better than less round turns.


    I believe that if you want to completely round out the turn you have to begin edging and bending the ski as soon as possible.

    I believe that rotating your body into the turn necessarily moves more weight inside and more weight backwards, than not doing that would cause.

    I believe that any turn that starts with rotary force created by rotating your upper body must be less round than one done with progressive steering in the legs under a stable upper body. Because the upper body moves, then stops, then the lower body follows relatively "rapidly". (I got *real* good at
    this move for a while, lol).

    I believe that there is a difference between projecting your COM along the path you're traveling (aka "forward") and rotating your body.

    I believe that you can ski some pretty high level stuff with pretty awful mechanics. (and have done so myself for many years).

    I believe these things because I used to ski like Mr. Clendennin all the time, and now I usually don't. Because of that I ski faster, with less impact, more control, and greater versatility.
     
  16. wyowindrunner

    wyowindrunner Getting on the lift Skier

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    Was at an instructors clinic at RLMR many years ago. Did not get full benefit of the the entire clinic as some of us were working that day. Was lead by an older woman from Big Sky. About the only thing i clearly remember was just that- uphill initiation. We were in steep bumps at the time.

    I think she was referring to your initial entry turn...it was 8-9 years ago
     
  17. jack97

    jack97 Getting off the lift Skier

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    :beercheer:

    But the disagreement is really about teaching styles and the desires outcome of the lesson or camp. You honestly think a camper can download all that you those things you believe in a week or two?
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  18. jack97

    jack97 Getting off the lift Skier

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    Clendenin is as old school as it gets not that it's bad but it frames a perspective. I've seen the uphill move in older ski vids and as mentioned World Cup bumper was doing this well.
     
  19. Magi

    Magi Instructor Instructor

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    :beercheer:

    What's the teaching style at issue? I don't feel like I've talked about "style", which I define as how the information is presented. I just believe Clendennin's "method" of "weight the inside ski and upper body rotate to start the turn" is bass ackwards.

    If by "download", you mean "understand" I've shown lots of people that in a day. Said without trying to avoid internet arguments it boils down to:

    Go up the hill for speed control.
    Ski like you're going where you want to go, not avoiding places you don't want to go.
    Move/Do as little as possible to get the outcome you want.​


    Most people I teach get a version of the above in their first day skiing. Seems to work pretty well. (I am always open to better ways to teach and present correct information!)

    I'm still trying to master the above in every turn in every condition, so I can't answer "how long a camp to do it perfectly every time". ogsmile

    :toast
     
  20. jack97

    jack97 Getting off the lift Skier

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    JC's camp is clearly aimed at intermediates trying to enjoy the bumps. Given one can only digest so much in a day or a week you can actually put a student into sensory overload, I see this at my real job all the time. IMO, getting balance and speed control is the key. A newbie (to the bumps) can do so much until they really get comfortable with the sensory and mechanics in 3 d terrain. Once they get it then it opens up real learning. I remember a quote from the old site by a mogul coach that puzzled me, " speed is organic, it grows once you develop it", never really understood it until I put the miles in those bumps.

    So if using that inside leg to control speed gets them comfortable with a big smile, I'm all for that.
     
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