Classic PSIA Medium-Radius Turn

[Steve]

The APSI demo has much more Upper Body/Lower Body separation showing. The 2009 PSIA demo has the skier square to the skis throughout and was closer to what a student might do.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Maybe Squaw this Sunday.

 

[François Pugh]

I can somewhat relate, having ignored this type of turn in favour of improving my arc-2-arc turns for a few decades, before deciding that I needed to become more rounded.

Having a fellow patroller show me a short radius turn, his key points were the weight shift timed with a pole plant to the new inside ski. What I noticed, tying in my then more recent exploration of the PMTS system and my knowledge of physics, was how the inside foot pull back powered the skis's rotation; previously my skis were at a much greater angle and didn't rotate about that axis (the snow/ice held them in place). Noticing and concentrating on all those things, it's easy to forget something.

Your comments about being tossed around and lack of extension flexion suggests that that "something" could be the suspension.
How are your absorption/extension skills?

Making terrain-ignoration turns in small bumps while keeping constant pressure on the skis can improve those skills. So can skiing over small rollers spaced close together, while maintaining a stable and smooth upper body.

 

[LiquidFeet]

"Terrain-ignoration turns in small bumps" -- great phrase! I'm stealing it. Thanks.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

skier: Thank for stating that the skidding should start at the top and become more edged throughout the turn. I thought that rounded arcing skidding was to occur throughout the entire turn. I will try that.

markojp: Quit watching me ski when I don't know you are around! I consistently default to a downstem when I get overwhelmed/afraid in the bumps. I believe my fundamental issue is Balance, but I don't know where, when, how and what it should feel like.

jimmy: I would like to see a video of me doing it, because it probably is all wrong and goofy, but I can ski rounded edged turns from start to finish, retracting and "tripping" over the edge with my CoM moving down the hill rolling onto the new edges. So, although I am no heluvaskier, I can carve somewhat. Although my fundamentals are likely screwed up there too, our mountain's trainer specifically said that what was lacking in my skiing and teaching was Rotation.

I'd guess you lack inside ski involvement. Did he mean rotary movement of the lower body?

 

[JESinstr]

I can somewhat relate, having ignored this type of turn in favour of improving my arc-2-arc turns for a few decades, before deciding that I needed to become more rounded.

Having a fellow patroller show me a short radius turn, his key points were the weight shift timed with a pole plant to the new inside ski. What I noticed, tying in my then more recent exploration of the PMTS system and my knowledge of physics, was how the inside foot pull back powered the skis's rotation; previously my skis were at a much greater angle and didn't rotate about that axis (the snow/ice held them in place). Noticing and concentrating on all those things, it's easy to forget something.

Your comments about being tossed around and lack of extension flexion suggests that that "something" could be the suspension.
How are your absorption/extension skills?

Making terrain-ignoration turns in small bumps while keeping constant pressure on the skis can improve those skills. So can skiing over small rollers spaced close together, while maintaining a stable and smooth upper body.

We should always be trying to carve our turns. This is the purest form of circular travel. The reality is that terrain, speed and skill levels will dictate our ability to go arc to arc. Therefore, brushing (outward extension of the leg combined with leg /foot rotation) should be the turn initiation movement of choice/necessity in a vast majority of our turns.

What this thread (and many others) keeps dancing around is the need to balance through the arch and make the arch the area through which the vertical axis passes. For years we have use the term "Squash the bug" or "Stamp out a cigarette" with the ball of the foot as a way of teaching students to rotate the ski. Off skis, these actions lift the heel. So why did we ever do that?

In skiing, the feet are anchored to the ski. You need a strong,flexible, footbed based platform to handle the varied dynamic forces...both present and future.

Key to maintaining balance through the arch is proper management of the hinge complex....ankles, knees and hips. Aligning the hinge complex correctly requires tension at either end. That's why we dorsiflex at the ankles and maintain a solid core at the top. Forward pressure comes as resultant flexion into the boot.


François, You talked about pulling your inside foot back and that's a good thing. You call it powering the skis rotation. I call it creating proper hinge alignment so that rotation takes place through the arch. More importantly, it affects the hinge alignment with your outside ski as well.

In the end, the ability to stay balanced through the arch via proper hinge alignment and tension will allow you to brush turns to your hearts content.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Per Magi's suggestion I bought the Alpine Technical Manual current edition (2015) their name for it is "Rotation" and then they focus on what part is rotating. I am missing lower body rotation. In the beginner Breakthrough on Skis video, Lito demos a move (a drill really) combing flexing the knee on the outside ski (which lowers your body) while driving that knee forward to scribe (i.e., rotate) an arc with the ski through the lower phase of the turn to across the fall line slightly uphill to completion. So Kneale, I lack that move. It combines Flexion with Rotation. That movement reminds me of driving a screw with one of those old style push screwdrivers. Earlier in the season I compensated for a lack of flexion by popping up in the bumps. And I am still doing that more than I would like.

François Pugh thank you for your suggestion. I will try it, but I have in the past to no success. Rather, per Lito I think short turns on blue groomers and terrain focused round bump turns are what I need to learn that movement pattern.

LiquidFeet I was hoping you were there. You warned me not to post a video on epicski.com. The same applies here no doubt. I truly applaud your efforts to involve Level III's, Demo Team members and Clinicians on the PSIA Community Forum, but it does not seem to be happening yet. So, I will likely ignore your good advice at my peril and post a video here in the hope that those whom I have learned to respect will provide valuable constructive MA and ignore the comments of the self aggrandizing trolls who populate every forum.

JESinstr I intuitively know that Balance is my issue. Your post is the best I have ever read. Period. The Alpine Technical Manual says that Balance is a "resultant" of the other three skills, edge, rotation, pressure. That is no doubt true, but the specifics of how the BODY especially the lower body must MOVE is lacking in my skiing and what I am supposed to do with my ankles, knees is what I need to know. I am totally confused about HOW to move my lower body to achieve good Balance and thus I am do not really know what good Balance should feel like!

François Pugh and JESinstr I have been experimenting with pulling the inside ski back. It does provide cuff Pressure to the inside ski and knee Flexion. While also adding driving the new-to-be outside knee forward to shift Pressure to the new outside ski. Magi's earlier suggestion in another thread that the pressure should be applied first along the length of the ski before tipping to edge - not downhill while tipping - turned a light on for me - I was actually releasing Pressure by moving my body down the hill while tipping.

But another effortless skier I know, says he drives the inside ski knee down the hill to initiate his upright flatter rounded medium radius turns. Just the opposite?

I just don't know when, where, how and why to Balance on my skis in that apparently effortless, more upright classic old school Level III Basic Parallel Turn.

I am a jumbled box of rocks in this type of turn and that is why I cannot ski bumps. Bottom line is that only perfect practice will create perfect skiing and I don't still know what to practice. I really hope next season it will come together.

It is currently 45F at Squaw with predicted high of 60F and low tonight will be only 41F, so we will see if we go tomorrow.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

I prefer to think of closing the new inside ankle at initiation rather than pulling that foot back. I want movements to be forward.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Gratitude to All: Out to try to replace the AC compressor bearing on my wife's Dakota to avoid having to replace the entire compressor. A possible musical thought for our day:

 

[JESinstr]

I prefer to think of closing the new inside ankle at initiation rather than pulling that foot back. I want movements to be forward.

Good Point now that I think about it..... but for those with poor flexing patterns, pulling the foot back is a strong corrective movement the folks can really feel. Of course, the real issue is to keep your inside foot underneath at all times. Proper flexing patterns will do this.

 

[Magi]

[QUOTE="Tim Hodgson, post: 240309, member: 1027]...
But another effortless skier I know, says he drives the inside ski knee down the hill to initiate his upright flatter rounded medium radius turns. Just the opposite?

I just don't know when, where, how and why to Balance on my skis in that apparently effortless, more upright classic old school Level III Basic Parallel Turn.
...[/QUOTE]


Balance over the center of the sidecut of your skis.
Balance over the engaged edge of your outside ski.

Easy test for why this is a thing: Stand about three feet away from a wall. Lean toward the wall so your body has to be held up by your hand on the wall. Alternate picking up a foot and balancing against the wall. Which foot feels stronger to stand on? (It should be the "outside" foot, further from the wall).


Driving your knee down the hill is not the same as driving your center of mass down the hill. Moving your knee(s) into the turn is a movement that results in tipping the ski. A common kinesthetic queue is "tip" or "drive" the knee (especially the inside) into the turn. The outcome the person wants is "tip your skis". The challenge is learning to tip your knee into the turn WITHOUT tipping your spine/shoulders/hands into the turn. (Aka disciplined upper body).

You can verify this by standing up, flexing your ankles and knees a bit, then attempting to tip your skis as much as possible without holding yourself up with an object. bonus points if you can then lift up the "inside" ski and balance on a single tipped foot. Movement of your upper body / COM should be minimal.

 

[Rod9301]

We should always be trying to carve our turns. This is the purest form of circular travel. The reality is that terrain, speed and skill levels will dictate our ability to go arc to arc. Therefore, brushing (outward extension of the leg combined with leg /foot rotation) should be the turn initiation movement of choice/necessity in a vast majority of our turns.

What this thread (and many others) keeps dancing around is the need to balance through the arch and make the arch the area through which the vertical axis passes. For years we have use the term "Squash the bug" or "Stamp out a cigarette" with the ball of the foot as a way of teaching students to rotate the ski. Off skis, these actions lift the heel. So why did we ever do that?

In skiing, the feet are anchored to the ski. You need a strong,flexible, footbed based platform to handle the varied dynamic forces...both present and future.

Key to maintaining balance through the arch is proper management of the hinge complex....ankles, knees and hips. Aligning the hinge complex correctly requires tension at either end. That's why we dorsiflex at the ankles and maintain a solid core at the top. Forward pressure comes as resultant flexion into the boot.


François, You talked about pulling your inside foot back and that's a good thing. You call it powering the skis rotation. I call it creating proper hinge alignment so that rotation takes place through the arch. More importantly, it affects the hinge alignment with your outside ski as well.

In the end, the ability to stay balanced through the arch via proper hinge alignment and tension will allow you to brush turns to your hearts content.

I don't understand how the leg extension will help brushing the turn.
What's wrong with simply relaxing the ankle to reduce the ski edge angle, like hh advocates?

 

[JESinstr]

I don't understand how the leg extension will help brushing the turn.
What's wrong with simply relaxing the ankle to reduce the ski edge angle, like hh advocates?

Can you elaborate on what ski (inside or outside) you are referring to? BTW how does the ankle relax exactly?

I used the term outward extension meaning the foot is moving laterally from the COM not necessarily a vertical extension.

Brushing is controlled skidding. It is neither a carving action nor a sliding action but a dynamic combination of both. IMO , it is purposed as an "on ramp" to the carving state.

We use this same movement pattern to form a wedge, albeit with two legs opposing. So at the rudimentary level, the foot moves out laterally (extends) away from the COM while at the sametime we rotate the foot/leg through the arch of the foot. If we take the time to teach beginners the proper way to form a wedge, then we are teaching the same movement pattern that will be used by the outside to brush into a turn.

Regarding the inside, edging happens as a result of the inside leg getting shorter. In the case of a wedge or brushed turn, it is more of a softening which enables the flattening of the inside ski. Is this what your were referring to when you say relaxing?

 

[Rod9301]

Can you elaborate on what ski (inside or outside) you are referring to? BTW how does the ankle relax exactly?

I used the term outward extension meaning the foot is moving laterally from the COM not necessarily a vertical extension.

Brushing is controlled skidding. It is neither a carving action nor a sliding action but a dynamic combination of both. IMO , it is purposed as an "on ramp" to the carving state.

We use this same movement pattern to form a wedge, albeit with two legs opposing. So at the rudimentary level, the foot moves out laterally (extends) away from the COM while at the sametime we rotate the foot/leg through the arch of the foot. If we take the time to teach beginners the proper way to form a wedge, then we are teaching the same movement pattern that will be used by the outside to brush into a turn.

Regarding the inside, edging happens as a result of the inside leg getting shorter. In the case of a wedge or brushed turn, it is more of a softening which enables the flattening of the inside ski. Is this what your were referring to when you say relaxing?

I'm referring to the outside ski.
If you flatten the ankle, reducing the edge angle, the ski will slightly skid.

This does not require any rotation added.

When I make these turns, I shorten the inside leg and tip it, just like in a carved turn.

But at the same time, I reduce the edge angle on the outside ski.
The result is a brushed turn, where you don't have any rotation.
In other words, the tail off the ski does not displace more than the tip.

 

[JESinstr]

I'm referring to the outside ski.
If you flatten the ankle, reducing the edge angle, the ski will slightly skid.

This does not require any rotation added.

When I make these turns, I shorten the inside leg and tip it, just like in a carved turn.

But at the same time, I reduce the edge angle on the outside ski.
The result is a brushed turn, where you don't have any rotation.
In other words, the tail off the ski does not displace more than the tip.

So let me get this straight. In a left turn, you shorten and tip the inside left leg while at the same time, you flatten the right outside? Are you advocating that we use an edged inside ski to initiate and form turn shape? That would jive with HH.

You also claim that there is no rotation taking place even though your are moving forward , trying to form a turn and flattening the outside ski? BTW rotary is best enabled on a flatten ski.

Finally since when does the tail need to displace more than the tip to exhibit rotation?

 

[HeluvaSkier]

@JESinstr @Rod9301
I'm quite certain I can perform whatever type of turns you two are talking about and honestly, for the life of me, I cannot decipher what either of you are trying to say.

 

[mdf]

LiquidFeet ... You warned me not to post a video... I will likely ignore your good advice at my peril and post a video here in the hope that those whom I have learned to respect will provide valuable constructive MA and ignore the comments of the self aggrandizing trolls who populate every forum.

I posted Movement Analysis video at least twice over the years. The first time was when I was completly remaking my skiing and I was stuck. It is a tough process but extremely valuable. I stongly endorse posting video of your problem areas.

It is not a gentle process. You need a thick skin and the ability to let some things go. Engage with the people you respect and politely ignore the others -- don't justify yourself or argue about it.

If you don't understand a point, ask for a specific time in the video that you should look at. If your reaction to a comment is immediate dismissal, stop, reflect, and ask yourself if it might be right after all.

 

[JESinstr]

@JESinstr @Rod9301
I'm quite certain I can perform whatever type of turns you two are talking about and honestly, for the life of me, I cannot decipher what either of you are trying to say.

No you can't, because you ski waaaaaaaay to fast!

Point taken. In the end it is all about having the needed skills and the ability to invoke them to get where you want to go.

Here's back at ya and hope all is well!

 

[LiquidFeet]

I posted Movement Analysis video at least twice over the years. The first time was when I was completly remaking my skiing and I was stuck. It is a tough process but extremely valuable. I stongly endorse posting video of your problem areas.

It is not a gentle process. You need a thick skin and the ability to let some things go. Engage with the people you respect and politely ignore the others -- don't justify yourself or argue about it.

If you don't understand a point, ask for a specific time in the video that you should look at. If your reaction to a comment is immediate dismissal, stop, reflect, and ask yourself if it might be right after all.

@Tim Hodgson, I must have cautioned you back at Epic about posting video for MA due to the nastiness of some people responding to MA requests. People at this point are working on keeping things civil, without the bullying.

 

[Tricia]

markojp: Doesn't someone who understands boots need to see me ski first? If not, if you can pm me with a recommendation for one or more boot fitters in the Tahoe area I would appreciate it. And must the particular skis I have compliment or be consistent with the boot characteristics?

I promise that I will look into boots this Spring/Summer but I have seen my colleagues go willy nilly from one boot fad (i.e., Fischer vacuum) to another with no rhyme or reason to me. Not saying that I ski better than them. I don't. But they spend allot of money on boots.

And funny that you mention it, one of the smooth effortless, old school skiers I skied with at Mammoth last weekend questioned if my boots (as a Race boot) had too much forward lean for the type of skiing I am trying to achieve...

There is a balance of seeing you ski, and seeing your ski/boot set up.
You have a great opportunity because you live in an area where there are several fitters who can take care of this for you. A few of them can also ski with you to assist in your set up.
Bud and Phil are just a start.