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Charger vs playful

GregK

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Why not have a Playful Charger and have both! ogsmile

Playful chargers are usually stiffer underfoot with softer tails than directional skis, more forward bindings mounts and sidecuts so they are more balanced in the air and weight on the heavier side so that they can still haul over crud while still being forgiving. They can haul when you want but don’t demand the skier to “on it” at the time.
Head Framewall, JSkis Masterblaster, Moment Bibby, Black Ops 118 and the Enforcer Free series are perfect examples of playful chargers.

Skis that you can do a complete run without swapping skis! Haha
 

Josh Matta

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I dont think skis are this binary....

to me the Brahma is a finesse ski to those that do the right things, In fact IMO if you do the right things you will generally be happy on stiffer ski even skiing slowly. Most people dont do the right things though................
 

mdf

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I've only been on one ski I clearly identified as a charger -- the Dynastar Cham 127 (in 189 length, which I think was the only length) from about 5 years ago. My impression at the time was that it was a ton of fun, but if I owned one I would just ski faster and faster until I accidentally killed myself.

Other than that, I percieve softer or stiffer, but have a hard time translating that onto the charger-vs-playful axis.
 

fatbob

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A finesse ski will always have adhesion and speed limits and can easily be over driven by a skied pilot, especially on ice.

Sounds like you are confirming my interpretation bias that sometimes a finesse ski can be a wet noodle.
 

Crank

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I am not a ski expert but I did not fine the Atomic Vintage to be playful. Just kind of middle of the road IMO. Playful to me is light and turny, bouncy, flouncy, fun. I go for playful over charger anytime.
 
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DanishRider

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I am not a ski expert but I did not fine the Atomic Vintage to be playful. Just kind of middle of the road IMO. Playful to me is light and turny, bouncy, flouncy, fun. I go for playful over charger anytime.
Which year? The all blue graphic one was like that - the earlier blue/White was much better :)
 

Crank

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Which year? The all blue graphic one was like that - the earlier blue/White was much better :)
IDK. I think 3 season back. Tried them at the 1-hour demo tent at Jackson Hole. Returned after 2 runs. Pretty sure it was all blue.
 

ski otter 2

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I am not a ski expert but I did not fine the Atomic Vintage to be playful. Just kind of middle of the road IMO. Playful to me is light and turny, bouncy, flouncy, fun. I go for playful over charger anytime.
Great thread, but I agree, to me, the Vantages aren't the greatest examples of playful, at least in the versions I demoed. Maybe the Brahma is a better example of a charger type, though.

Bent Chetler Atomic skis, or the Line Sir Francis Bacon - now those are big time playful. One side of the spectrum but good. Even an old time skier like me can enjoy them, unless in crud getting tossed (on the Bent Chets especially).

The Nordica Soulrider 97, that's another example of a playful ski that is a lot of fun and relaxing often, even though it has a speed limit.

Of the Enforcers, 104 Free is maybe a more directional example of both playful and charge, whereas the Mantra 102 is more pure charge.

For a few years, the Moment Bibby Pro (either length, depending on one's size) has been a good example of a playful charger in powder. The K2 Pettitor 189/191 is another. (As near as I can tell, the Black Ops 118 is a Pettitor knock-off - great ski.)
 
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peterm

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Blizzard Cochise is more of a charger than the Brahma. Extremely quiet and composed at speed. So much so that everything seems to happen in slow motion if that makes sense. At least that's my memory of renting them for a day a couple of years back. The other thing I remember is a feeling of not being worthy :)
 
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DanishRider

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Great thread, but I agree, to me, the Vantages aren't the greatest examples of playful, at least in the versions I demoed. Maybe the Brahma is a better example of a charger type, though.

Bent Chetler Atomic skis, or the Line Sir Francis Bacon - now those are big time playful. One side of the spectrum but good. Even an old time skier like me can enjoy them, unless in crud getting tossed (on the Bent Chets especially).

The Nordica Soulrider 97, that's another example of a playful ski that is a lot of fun and relaxing often, even though it has a speed limit.

Of the Enforcers, 104 Free is maybe a more directional example of both playful and charge, whereas the Mantra 102 is more pure charge.

For a few years, the Moment Bibby Pro (either length, depending on one's size) has been a good example of a playful charger in powder. The K2 Pettitor 189/191 is another. (As near as I can tell, the Black Ops 118 is a Pettitor knock-off - great ski.)
I agree - the vantage is “somewhat’ playful, but had to go head to head with something i had in my quiver:)
 

Rod9301

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I ski a stiff metal wide ski, charger for sure.

But when you talk about playful, it seems most comments are about playful in powder.

Where do you guys ski that you find so much untracked powder?

At squaw, this lasts about half an hour, after which you really need a charger ski.
 

Pdub

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Missing from this discussion is body weight. Your playful ski at 200 pounds may be my charger at 140 pounds. I recently posted about such an experience with 177 cm Nordica Enforcer 100s; I just didn't have a enough mass to enjoy them at any speed, especially in crud.

As a lightweight it's been a real challenge finding the right ski. I am definitely a "finesse" skier (carver, shorter turns, precise) but as a lightweight does this mean I need "playful" skis? I certainly have no interest in slarving, jumping and skiing backwards! And I do hit the 40s on groomers, so I need some "high end," something I may not get from a playful ski.

Hoping the Rustler 9 or Head Kore 93/99 will work for most Western applications, but I'm wary to commit given these concerns.

Also I see your point Rod9301. If you don't backcountry or cat ski, a dedicated powder ski seems pretty silly. Half an hour of untracked seems optimistic at most NA resorts. Not to mention you could ski untracked on almost anything.
 

GregK

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I ski a stiff metal wide ski, charger for sure.

But when you talk about playful, it seems most comments are about playful in powder.

Where do you guys ski that you find so much untracked powder?

At squaw, this lasts about half an hour, after which you really need a charger ski.

Thats where playful chargers like the Black Ops 118 and Moment Bibby/Wildcat come into play. Enough weight and stiffness under foot but more forgiving tip/tails that are fun in fresh powder but separate themselves when stuff gets tracked. LOVE my Bibby’s through heavy crud! Makes it super fun.
 

GregK

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As a lightweight it's been a real challenge finding the right ski. I am definitely a "finesse" skier (carver, shorter turns, precise) but as a lightweight does this mean I need "playful" skis? I certainly have no interest in slarving, jumping and skiing backwards! And I do hit the 40s on groomers, so I need some "high end," something I may not get from a playful ski.

Just have to pick the right length for your weight which is the 169cm length of Enforcers for you. Think the longer length than you’re used to and for your size combined with the fact that I’d put money on your current 177cm E100 skis being edge high made for more work than it should have been. I’d be shocked if you didn’t love a properly flat and tuned 169cm E100 for your wants. Enforcer 93 if you wanted it to be quicker edge to edge and a bit more carving power although E100 is a bit more float and more forgiving in bumps.
 

Noodler

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Missing from this discussion is body weight. Your playful ski at 200 pounds may be my charger at 140 pounds. I recently posted about such an experience with 177 cm Nordica Enforcer 100s; I just didn't have a enough mass to enjoy them at any speed, especially in crud.

As a lightweight it's been a real challenge finding the right ski. I am definitely a "finesse" skier (carver, shorter turns, precise) but as a lightweight does this mean I need "playful" skis? I certainly have no interest in slarving, jumping and skiing backwards! And I do hit the 40s on groomers, so I need some "high end," something I may not get from a playful ski.

Hoping the Rustler 9 or Head Kore 93/99 will work for most Western applications, but I'm wary to commit given these concerns.

Also I see your point Rod9301. If you don't backcountry or cat ski, a dedicated powder ski seems pretty silly. Half an hour of untracked seems optimistic at most NA resorts. Not to mention you could ski untracked on almost anything.

Not entirely.

Charger vs. Playful isn't just about the ski flex. Of course matching the body weight of the skier to the desired ski flex has some impact on these designations, but the flex pattern, sidecut, rocker profile, stability, tip profile, etc. all have as much, if not more impact on whether a ski is truly a charger.
 

Tony S

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You can finesse and force a SL ski or GS ski into doing things it wasn't designed to do if you are a skilled pilot. A finesse ski will always have adhesion and speed limits and can easily be over driven by a skied pilot, especially on ice.

I've taken a 23M GS ski from the race course in the top three to playing in the woods one day, certainly not it's intended habitat but workable. It wasn't the ski that was providing the finesse.

Well that was modest.
 

Tony S

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Is "Finesse ski" sometimes a euphemism applied to an underpowered noodle?

I would have asked, "Is 'Charger' sometimes a euphemism applied to an I-Beam that's only useful to someone over 200 pounds?"

You see my point here? There is inherent male / bigger / stronger bias in all this stuff. If a ski is stupid stiff and the skier can't leverage it, the problem is with the skier. If a ski is lovely and compliant and the skier overpowers it, the problem is with the ski. Kind of irks me.

I want all the women on the board to chime in here, please. @AmyPJ , @Analisa , @elemmac , others.
 

KingGrump

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I want all the women on the board to chime in here, please. @AmyPJ , @Analisa , @elemmac , others.

OK, I am responding to the call of "others."
I have been told "I ski like a girl." I considered that a compliment.
I firmly believe I am a finesse skier. IMO, most of my skis are finesse skis. I like them that way.
 

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