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Wasatchman

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Just noticed that Park City has made a number of changes to their trail ratings at Park City. There is no longer a double blue trail rating designation. Most of the previous double blues are now designated as black diamond. Meanwhile, all of the previous single black diamond rated trails on the 9990 lift have now been increased to double black.

Talk about trail rating inflation. The changes are absurd in my view and now makes a mockery of the entire trail rating system at Park City. Runs like Sidewinder and Tycoon are now black diamonds? Please! Meanwhile, trails like Moraine, 94 Turns, and Aspen Grove rated as double black is just absurd. The only benefit I can see is to keep more people off of Sidewinder which could get pretty crazy with the mixture of advanced skiers trying to get past the less advanced skiers clogging up what is a narrower ski run.

I am concerned some skiers not familiar with the area might go down one of these recently inflated black or double black runs and then head on over to terrain with the same rating designation that is much more difficult and potentially get in over their head. Park City/Vail made a huge mistake with the changes to the trail rating designation, in my view.

Any others agree with me that the changes are idiotic? Has anyone noticed Vail making similar changes at their other resorts?
 

fatbob

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Don't see the big deal - they eliminated a grade that they got rid of some time ago at other properties and nudged things up a bit. It's on the punters if they over judge their abilities and get into trouble. To my mind double blacks are rarely if ever groomed unless they are legit downhill courses. I would have thought the ungroomed keeps the idiots from themselves.
 

mdf

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I'm not convinced it's a safety issue, but it is unfortunate, especially the double blues.

Back when my son was learning we went to Breckenridge and the blue-blacks were perfect for him at that time. Of course they got rid of that rating and changed them to blacks (I think ) quite some time ago.
 

KingGrump

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Talk about trail rating inflation. The changes are absurd in my view and now makes a mockery of the entire trail rating system at Park City.

Rather than looking at it from a negative perspective. Look at it as Vail is give their guest more for their money.

I never got up the nerves to ski the blacks at PC. Always wanted to but keep getting stuck on the double and triple blues there. Perhaps this season I will get up enough chutzpah to do one the newly minted black. Thank you Vail.
 

silverback

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I'm no fan of Vail Corp but on a positeve note...Maybe intermediate skilled tourists will just stay off of 9990 which would be nice. Jupiter is all double black too. Sidewinder is usually polished marble from the crowds of intermediates skidding sideways down it and making it tough to thread the needle getting down it. Fewer of those folks would be nice too especially since they have improved the slope going around on Red Pine Road. I'm sure it somehow comes around to marketing though. The new map sure makes the mountain look good.
 

David Chaus

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Rather than looking at it from a negative perspective. Look at it as Vail is give their guest more for their money.

I never got up the nerves to ski the blacks at PC. Always wanted to but keep getting stuck on the double and triple blues there. Perhaps this season I will get up enough chutzpah to do one the newly minted black. Thank you Vail.

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Wasatchman

Wasatchman

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I'm no fan of Vail Corp but on a positeve note...Maybe intermediate skilled tourists will just stay off of 9990 which would be nice. Jupiter is all double black too. Sidewinder is usually polished marble from the crowds of intermediates skidding sideways down it and making it tough to thread the needle getting down it. Fewer of those folks would be nice too especially since they have improved the slope going around on Red Pine Road. I'm sure it somehow comes around to marketing though. The new map sure makes the mountain look good.

The only positive is that it hopefully keeps the intermediates off of Sidewinder. In some ways it helps the marketing to show a map with more black diamonds, but on the other hand I would be afraid that it will further create a reputation that PCMR has some weak a** black diamonds. This hurts the reputation of the entire mountain by increasing a perception that there is actually no advanced terrain to be had at PCMR. I know PCMR already has that reputation among some of the Utah locals. Let's be real, PCMR generally can't match up to the steeps of Alta/Snowbird. On the other hand, PCMR still has some great terrain off of Jupiter/9990 (especially if you are willing to hike a bit) as well as some amazing tree skiing that I'd stack up with as among the best in the state Utah. But again, I have a feeling that ultimately the changes to the trail ratings are ultimately going to hurt the resorts overall perception of its advanced terrain due to the ridiculous inflation of some of the trails.
 
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Wasatchman

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With the change in trail ratings, you've now officially skied some of the single black diamonds at PCMR without any extra effort at all! My wife was all geared up to try and ski a double black diamond this year, but now she already has with the trail rating inflation. She proudly proclaimed to me yesterday when we looked at the new trail map that she has already become a better skier without even getting on skis this year :)
 

UGASkiDawg

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All ratings are based on how the PC terrain is relative to Flail itself. Thus all trails should be rated blacks or worse since Flail is so flat.
 

HardDaysNight

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I'm not convinced it's a safety issue, but it is unfortunate, especially the double blues.

Back when my son was learning we went to Breckenridge and the blue-blacks were perfect for him at that time. Of course they got rid of that rating and changed them to blacks (I think ) quite some time ago.

When they changed the ratings from blue-black to black were the slopes no longer perfect for your son? Unless they physically modified the gradients, I’m confused.
 

Lorenzzo

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This is part of Vail's stated commitment to provide a better experience for their guests. Some have questioned whether that's just pull your chain, bs corporate speak or a true commitment. Well now we have proof. Vail is providing even more black diamond terrain!

People want more and this gives them that. I want more. Don't you want more?
 
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mdf

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When they changed the ratings from blue-black to black were the slopes no longer perfect for your son? Unless they physically modified the gradients, I’m confused.

It helped us pick out the right trails, since we didn't know the mountain. It was exactly where he was, progressing from blues to blacks.

Or do you perhaps think we should just mark all the trails on the mountain the same?
 

François Pugh

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Grade inflation is everywhere.:nono:

I would be happy with a simple most difficult 1/3 of the mountain black, easiest 1/3 green, the rest blue. I don't need no Schtinking double black diamond designations.

Truth be told I stopped paying attention to the signs decades ago. I only started to notice the signs again when skiing with my daughter; she gets mad if I lead her down a path that she finds difficult. When she gets mad, I suffer the consequences :eek:.
 

HardDaysNight

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No mdf, it’s obviously a good idea to give people some sense of what to expect on any given run. I don’t think it’s a precise enough indicator on which to base go/no go decisions at this level. I’m sure, for example, that under certain conditions a blue-black could ski like a very tough black and under others like an easy blue. It’s not immutable.
 
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Wasatchman

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No mdf, it’s obviously a good idea to give people some sense of what to expect on any given run. I don’t think it’s a precise enough indicator on which to base go/no go decisions at this level. I’m sure, for example, that under certain conditions a blue-black could ski like a very tough black and under others like an easy blue. It’s not immutable.

The conditions clearly matter, but that isn't a good excuse not to try and have accurate ratings under generally "normal conditions" that would apply the vast majority of the time. And if the conditions are extraordinarily difficult, one would already generally know this on the mountain in general. I think it is very helpful to mark terrain that is appropriate for those skiing blues that are progressing to the blacks.
 

WheatKing

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WTF is a double blue? or a blue black?.. are blue blacks any easier than black blues? What about a green blue.. is that more of a yellow?

Someone is making mountains outta mole hills. Reminds me of the kids who get mad when you call them 7.. but are very quick to say, "I'm 7 and 3/4.." like it matters.

All the good skiers I've ever known.. they all agree the hardest trails to ski are the greens.. either you're dodging people from in front (or behind) or your going so damn slow that you mindlessly go to edge a turn and end up falling over because well.. you're going too damn slow. No one wears that as a badge of pride though..

I like skiing the harder blues on the easiest part of the hill any more.. all the gappers/boarders are out in force on the blacks/double blacks screwing up any lines and scraping off the top as you come down the hill.. that ain't no fun.. now a wide open blue groomed to an inch of it's life that you can go edge to edge laying over some sweeet GS turns @ 50mph.. now we're talking... trail ratings are mostly meaningless.. it's how you ski them that counts..
 

socalgal

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The conditions clearly matter, but that isn't a good excuse not to try and have accurate ratings under generally "normal conditions" that would apply the vast majority of the time. And if the conditions are extraordinarily difficult, one would already generally know this on the mountain in general. I think it is very helpful to mark terrain that is appropriate for those skiing blues that are progressing to the blacks.

As I continue along in my learning journey, having these subsets have been invaluable. Especially being new to the sport and not "knowing" a mountain well.
 

TonyC

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My view is that there should be 5 grades of terrain, as was done most accurately by Jackson a long time ago.

What we have here is just just blatant underlining of what most of us knew already. Trail ratings are meaningless on an absolute scale. Every map is so marked, stating that the ratings are relative within that ski area. We can now modify that to mean, "Trail ratings are based upon what our marketing department thinks will make most of our clients feel good."
 

Jim McDonald

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Snow conditions and/or grooming can turn black diamonds blue and blue squares a deep-dark shade of black.
 

Jacob

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I'm struggling to see what the big deal is here. When I grew up doing ski trips in CO, there was no such thing as a double-blue, or a blue-black, or a double-green, or whatever. It was just green, blue, black, and double-black.

It seems like they're just going back to the same rating system that they had in place in the past.
 

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