Changes to delta angle - wow!

[cantunamunch]

True enough, only, regarding your point (3), when jamming mostly you're flexing the boot sole and AFD area - toepiece wings that can be bent in that manner under hand force would never be safe to ski because they'd lever out with ski use even when properly set up.

 

[Noodler]

Once again for clarification... not all bindings use a manual adjustment for the height of the toe over the AFD. In fact, most Tyrolia/Head/Fischer do not. The newer EVO and the Attack series do, but there are plenty that do not have an adjustment.

No one is saying that it is safe to ski with shims stuck between the boot and the AFD. You can only get away with up to about 3mm. This is only for testing before making a permanent change at the boot or the binding. It is much easier to temporarily test these changes before modifying your equipment.

Sticking a shim in between the boot toe and the AFD does create a change in delta (at least on every binding I tested and please don't tell me my bindings are incorrectly adjusted again - that is just an insult). I am still the ONLY one in this thread who actually tested the results in the real world on my large quiver of skis. Not only that, I have used this extensively myself and with friends on the mountain and you can clearly feel the change in your fore/aft balance. This isn't a figment of the imagination.

 

[Eleeski]

Does raising the toe by the thickness of a credit card really make a difference one can feel? I'm not sure I could notice 5mm.

Varying steepness will call for different stances over the ski. Far more relevant than the angle variations from mounts.

I suppose that relatively flat groomers for smooth turns might reveal a difference but realistically if you can make pretty turns, you should be able to adapt.

Eric

 

[cantunamunch]

Does raising the toe by the thickness of a credit card really make a difference one can feel? I'm not sure I could notice 5mm.

3mm over 295mm I do notice but it is the minimum I notice.

I am still the ONLY one in this thread who actually tested the results in the real world on my large quiver of skis.

Umm. No.

 

[ScottB]

Noodler, the important thing is the binding should have very little Gap or play. I don't dispute your results, the question is why can the Gap be increased in your bindings. That is what I want you to explain?

I stated my theories, what are yours. I agree your results are real. What is the cause of the Gap increasing?

BTW, no one is disputing a Delta change can be felt. Not sure where you got that impression

 

[ScottB]

I went and hand tested my bindings tonight. First off, some bindings have non adjustable afds. So their Gap should be 0.5 mm, but it might be very large, like 2-3 mm. I didn't make any measurements.

What I found was some toe pieces rotate on their bases just due to tolerances or loosenes. This will allow the toe wings to move up some. I wouldn't call this a defect, but it's not desirable. This could explain the results noodler measured.

 

[Noodler]

I went and hand tested my bindings tonight. First off, some bindings have non adjustable afds. So their Gap should be 0.5 mm, but it might be very large, like 2-3 mm. I didn't make any measurements.

What I found was some toe pieces rotate on their bases just due to tolerances or loosenes. This will allow the toe wings to move up some. I wouldn't call this a defect, but it's not desirable. This could explain the results noodler measured.

Bingo. There is a tolerance in the toe piece that permits the wings to move a bit. Not saying this is a good thing, but it seems as if everyone was assuming that the toe wings form a "fixed" ceiling height so that no matter what you put under the toe, there would be no change. That's simply not the case with many bindings (including all the skis sitting in my house... around 30 skis).

 

[Noodler]

BTW - this whole issue with the toe is why I have posted about the heel lug height being so critical for ensuring a rock solid connection to the ski. If your heel lug height is below 30mm you're most likely going to get some play. Of course I didn't test every binding on the market, but it certainly was the case with the 5 different models I tested. Since learning this, I now router my heels at 31mm.

 

[Henry]

I'm not sure I could notice 5mm.

I can. I put some Attack13 demo bindings on a new pair of skis and felt like my heels were low. I put a 1/8" plexiglass shim under the heel bindings, about 3 mm, and now I feel balanced on the skis. And, it's all about me...my body structure, my boots' shaft angle (adjusted the way I like), ramp angle of the boot board, binding delta and sole length. Measuring from the toe binding contact point on the antifriction device to the contact point on the heel binding, the delta I like of 6 mm, I have about 1-1/4° delta angle. Works for me. (Delta angle calculated using a right angle calculator with the sole contact point length and delta.)

 

[hrstrat57]

Appears most of the posters in this thread are West coast skiers where pistonplates probably won’t work for the wider skis most of you folks probably ride. But just one shim under the toepiece makes a dramatic difference for me on both my SL and GS Racetigers with Marker piston plates. Turn initiation is much easier...even more so with the bindings mounted one position forward. Shimming of both heelpiece and toepiece is possible - the level of customization to YOUR skiing needs/style is incredible and there are no worries regarding retention.

This flexibility is exactly why I selected the Volkl Deacon Pro as my east coast all mountain ski.

 

[CalG]

3mm over 295mm I do notice but it is the minimum I notice.


3mm over 295mm is 1% or about 1/2 of 1 degree of angle.

 

[Noodler]

My own personal experience when testing gas pedaling on my boots proved to me that as little as 1mm is a huge change for my fore/aft balance (I also have a 295mm BSL). When you compute the angle it just doesn't seem like much, but the difference between 1mm, 2mm, and 3mm shims was very obvious. I accidentally over did it, and had 4mm installed on my boots and had to back off and changed to 3mm. At 4mm I felt like I couldn't get the tip of the ski off the snow anymore.

 

[cantunamunch]

Degrees are misleading and questionably useful. That 3mm up at the toe is not quite 4mm closer to vertical at the top of the cuff. Most everyone here can tell the difference between having a cuff spoiler and removing it.

 

[CalG]

Degrees are misleading and questionably useful. That 3mm up at the toe is not quite 4mm closer to vertical at the top of the cuff. Most everyone here can tell the difference between having a cuff spoiler and removing it.

Degrees are useful. They are objective. Like blind testing.

But who does that ?

 

[jimmy]

I am confused, are you trying to correct a boot with too much forward lean?

I was advised recently to fold up a bit of ski map (about 1 millimeter thick) and put it on top of the anti-friction device on the front of my binding. This was in response to feeling like I was in the back seat and having trouble getting my edges in, among other things (btw I am 6'2", weigh 190 pounds, have a 28.5 boot with BSL of 325. Bindings are Marker Griffon, ski is 185cm, 92cm underfoot).

I couldn't believe such a small change would have such a big impact. The difference in my skiing was immediate. My posture felt so much better and the level of control I had increased dramatically.

Having never heard of delta angle until I had this experience (it took me a few googles to even figure out that was what it was called), I have been reading through the large amount of information on the forum but I had a couple of additional quick questions:

- Is there any risk in putting a shim on top of the AFD from a safety perspective (e.g. effecting the bindings releasing in a crash?)
- I was going to experiment by adding another 1mm at a time. Is there any advice on how high a person should go, or is it just trial and error until you feel you have found the sweet spot?

Thanks for any advice you might have!