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Changes to delta angle - wow!

Wilhelmson

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Last year my kid's semi-adult boots had a thinner toe piece which required raising the afd higher than normal to obtain proper spacing. How isn't that raising the floor and resultant angle?

OP doesn't tell us if this is a new setup or if he's trying to dial in a tested setup.

I'm not a super expert skier so....while my new setup seems to put me too far back, when I jumped into a slalom training course that forced me to turn quickly on ice, guess what, after a couple nonathletic turns I got my hands forward and did fine (for me) without too much skidding. Trying to make athletic movements with a laid back posture is not going to apply pressure to the right part of the ski. Eliminate the variables; check afd spacing, address mechanics, tune skis, try spoiler, then break out the duct tape.
 

Noodler

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As clearly shown in the photos, the delta does not change, just the gap between the boot and AFD to prevent movement changes.

The easiest way to think of this is a ceiling vs floor analogy with the ceiling fixed on a Griffon but floor moves up to reduce space and the floor fixed on a STH binding and the ceiling is adjust down to reduce play. With a ceiling fixed you can’t go any higher unless you shim UNDER the floor to increase overall height. With a Salomon with an adjustable ceiling, you could increase height with shim inside OR outside of the room.

So what you're saying is that the "ceiling" is preventing the boot toe from actually raising up. That surprises me because I thought the binding toe wings had the ability to shift upward if "pushed" by having a shim on top of the AFD. That's how the Tyrolias work. I'm going to go out in my garage now and check this out with actual measurements of what's happening with the introduction of a shim. Of course I don't have every binding model on the planet, but I'll at least report back what I get from my quiver. More to come...
 

GregK

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So what you're saying is that the "ceiling" is preventing the boot toe from actually raising up. That surprises me because I thought the binding toe wings had the ability to shift upward if "pushed" by having a shim on top of the AFD. That's how the Tyrolias work. I'm going to go out in my garage now and check this out with actual measurements of what's happening with the introduction of a shim. Of course I don't have every binding model on the planet, but I'll at least report back what I get from my quiver. More to come...

They may have a BIT of give in the height but they are fixed like the Griffons. By putting in spacers under a sole, it’s like you’re CRANKING up the AFD so it’s super tight in there and I’d honestly be nervous of them releasing properly.
Top of the boot height won’t be changing just the gap between the sole and AFD changes.
 

GregK

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Have seen kids Tyrolia bindings that auto adjust from kids to adult bindings by “raising the wings” a bit when you put an adult boot in there. Attack2 bindings are fixed in height and have to be manually adjusted though.
 

Doug Briggs

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Just to muddy the water a bit, there are Griffons (admittedly older ones) that have no AFD adjustment at the toe.

IMG_20191126_103258971.jpg

All Griffons have a fixed height of the top of the toe. As was discussed in another thread (regarding a fused ankle and messing about with delta), it is quite possible (if not likely) for the addition of material between the AFD and the boot to create unsafe release conditions. If you don't understand the mechanics of your binding and its AFD works, you should only consider shimming between the boot and AFD for very temporary trials. And as has been pointed out you may only be taking up slack from a misadjusted AFD or a worn boot sole, not actually reliably changing the delta.

The OP needs to provide a picture of his Griffons with the boot in place without the shims before anyone can offer an educated opinion of his set up. The image be from the side with the boot's toe lug contacting the bindings toe wings and illustrating the amount of space (if any) between the AFD and the boot.

IMG_20190327_210517108.jpg

Additionally, shimming the boot, not the binding, may have undesired effects on other bindings. And not all boots can be shimmed or for that matter canted due to their having hollow areas in the relevant areas of the boot sole.
 

Noodler

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They may have a BIT of give in the height but they are fixed like the Griffons. By putting in spacers under a sole, it’s like you’re CRANKING up the AFD so it’s super tight in there and I’d honestly be nervous of them releasing properly.
Top of the boot height won’t be changing just the gap between the sole and AFD changes.

As noted in other threads, they will NOT release properly. The point of the shims is only for brief testing. This is not a final solution. The actual change in installing a gas pedal on the boots is to then router the top of the lug to bring the overall toe height back into compliance. The question posed is whether the shims are effective at actually changing the binding delta. So here's the info...

The actual situation is a bit of a mix of what has been stated so far in this thread. I measured the toe height of the boot from the bottom of the boot toe sole to the top of the ski using a digital caliper. I measured this height with the boot in the binding without a shim and then with a 3mm shim. Here are the results:
  1. All Tyrolia toes that use the "tank tread" rotating AFD (Freeflex, PR, etc.) fully accept and adjust to the shim height. So a 3mm shim does in fact raise the boot toe 3mm.
  2. The Marker toe on my Blizzard system skis (S-Power, etc.) results in a net change of ~2mm higher. So clearly there is some "squishing" of the AFD happening, but there is a delta change.
  3. Tyrolia Attack and Attack2 toes also show a similar result to the tested Marker toe, in that the resulting change is ~2mm, not the full 3mm of the shim height.
  4. Salomon Speedplate 12 Ti (has an adjustable toe height) also resulted in a ~2mm height change similar to the Marker and Attacks.
  5. Look PX12 Ti once again resulted in a ~2mm height change.
So I mostly ski on Tyrolia "tank tread" toes and as I stated, these toe wings do in fact adjust upward when a shim is in place. You will get the full thickness of the shim when testing delta changes. However, the other bindings do in fact have something else going on that results in the loss of some of the shim height in the resulting delta. But of course there still is a change in the delta. The toe has moved higher.

So back to the OP's original post regarding changes to the delta. He did in fact experience a positive change in the delta with the introduction of the shim. I believe that most likely his boot toe was elevated which resulted in improved skiing performance.
 

GregK

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2F21A4DC-A6F1-4D7A-8785-F663B6B83570.jpeg
As noted in other threads, they will NOT release properly. The point of the shims is only for brief testing. This is not a final solution. The actual change in installing a gas pedal on the boots is to then router the top of the lug to bring the overall toe height back into compliance. The question posed is whether the shims are effective at actually changing the binding delta. So here's the info...

The actual situation is a bit of a mix of what has been stated so far in this thread. I measured the toe height of the boot from the bottom of the boot toe sole to the top of the ski using a digital caliper. I measured this height with the boot in the binding without a shim and then with a 3mm shim. Here are the results:
  1. All Tyrolia toes that use the "tank tread" rotating AFD (Freeflex, PR, etc.) fully accept and adjust to the shim height. So a 3mm shim does in fact raise the boot toe 3mm.
  2. The Marker toe on my Blizzard system skis (S-Power, etc.) results in a net change of ~2mm higher. So clearly there is some "squishing" of the AFD happening, but there is a delta change.
  3. Tyrolia Attack and Attack2 toes also show a similar result to the tested Marker toe, in that the resulting change is ~2mm, not the full 3mm of the shim height.
  4. Salomon Speedplate 12 Ti (has an adjustable toe height) also resulted in a ~2mm height change similar to the Marker and Attacks.
  5. Look PX12 Ti once again resulted in a ~2mm height change.
So I mostly ski on Tyrolia "tank tread" toes and as I stated, these toe wings do in fact adjust upward when a shim is in place. You will get the full thickness of the shim when testing delta changes. However, the other bindings do in fact have something else going on that results in the loss of some of the shim height in the resulting delta. But of course there still is a change in the delta. The toe has moved higher.

So back to the OP's original post regarding changes to the delta. He did in fact experience a positive change in the delta with the introduction of the shim. I believe that most likely his boot toe was elevated which resulted in improved skiing performance.

To properly test the difference, you should adjust the AFD height so there is only a .5mm gap between the AFD and toe sole when you are applying pressure on the back of the boot to wheelie the toe. Once you’re done this, you can TRY to force those spacers in to measure the of the boot but if they are larger than 0.5 mm they shouldn’t be able to fit.

The fact that you see a difference is showing that your AFD pads are all too low it seems giving you gaps below the “fixed ceiling” of the binding so you can fit spacers in at all.

Here’s the fixed portion(ceiling) of the Attack bindings that your boot toe should be fairly tight against after setting the AFD and what prevents the boot TOP from rising any further. My screwdriver is under the fixed lip in the photo above.


I bet 70% of the bindings currently being used don’t have this set correctly so you are not alone. Mine were the same before I learned the “wheelie the boot” trick.
 

Noodler

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View attachment 85488

To properly test the difference, you should adjust the AFD height so there is only a .5mm gap between the AFD and toe sole when you are applying pressure on the back of the boot to wheelie the toe. Once you’re done this, you can TRY to force those spacers in to measure the of the boot but if they are larger than 0.5 mm they shouldn’t be able to fit.

The fact that you see a difference is showing that your AFD pads are all too low it seems giving you gaps below the “fixed ceiling” of the binding so you can fit spacers in at all.

Here’s the fixed portion(ceiling) of the Attack bindings that your boot toe should be fairly tight against after setting the AFD and what prevents the boot TOP from rising any further. My screwdriver is under the fixed lip in the photo above.


I bet 70% of the bindings currently being used don’t have this set correctly so you are not alone. Mine were the same before I learned the “wheelie the boot” trick.

You seem to be missing the point of all this. The point is to create a change in the delta that you can test to see if modifying the boot or installing a shim under the binding makes sense. It's not to get the binding to work correctly with the temporary shim. If the height of the boot toe changes (which it does as exhibited by my testing) that's all that matters.

We stand on our bindings when we ski. If the shim changes the height that the toe sits at we have accomplished the goal of testing a delta change. I'm not sure why we're going in circles on this still even after I have provided actual measurements from the real world.
 

GregK

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You seem to be missing the point of all this. The point is to create a change in the delta that you can test to see if modifying the boot or installing a shim under the binding makes sense. It's not to get the binding to work correctly with the temporary shim. If the height of the boot toe changes (which it does as exhibited by my testing) that's all that matters.

We stand on our bindings when we ski. If the shim changes the height that the toe sits at we have accomplished the goal of testing a delta change. I'm not sure why we're going in circles on this still even after I have provided actual measurements from the real world.

The point is that the height boot/ramp in a properly adjusted binding with a fixed height(Griffon or Attack) will not change. Your spacers are doing nothing to ramp or height. It’s only making a difference because your AFD are low so the spacers are raising them up to levels they should be at in the first place.

Another way to test the AFD height and make sure there is no slack is to “stand in your skis” with boot in the binding. Try to lift the ski tips by leaning back in your boots then test AFD clearance with a business card. Guarantee yours will allow the card to easily slide under the toe when leaning back a bit. Adjust them till you can lean back and have resistance on that card or no looseness in the binding.
THEN measure and see the results.
 

Noodler

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The point is that the height boot/ramp in a properly adjusted binding with a fixed height(Griffon or Attack) will not change. Your spacers are doing nothing to ramp or height. It’s only making a difference because your AFD are low so the spacers are raising them up to levels they should be at in the first place.

Another way to test the AFD height and make sure there is no slack is to “stand in your skis” with boot in the binding. Try to lift the ski tips by leaning back in your boots then test AFD clearance with a business card. Guarantee yours will allow the card to easily slide under the toe when leaning back a bit. Adjust them till you can lean back and have resistance on that card or no looseness in the binding.
THEN measure and see the results.

Dude - you couldn't be more wrong. There is no height adjustment on the Tyrolia Freeflex and it is making the full change. On the other bindings I measured that the change is less than the shim height, but still makes a change. Sorry, but until you actually put a shim in a binding and measure it the way I did, I'm done responding to you.
 

GregK

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998B8AD7-95D5-40D7-A381-53BF59D94B25.jpeg
83F46764-D72A-4288-9801-367E614E667C.jpeg
143E786F-E192-4C0C-8ADE-BAB067590037.jpeg

Pics of a properly adjusted Attack binding AFD with the boot base around 2cm off the ski and top edge of the boot toe piece hitting the fixed “ceiling” at 3.5cm. Next pic with 2.5mm ruler jammed under the toe sole AFD. Same 2cm off the ski, same 3.5cm to boot tip. Next pic 4.5mm magazine crushed between the AFD and boot. Same 2cm off the base, same 3.5cm to top of boot edge. Any different results, your AFD is not properly adjusted up. Yours is appropriately 2mm low.
 

GregK

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42F273A9-323A-4331-A045-387CB5EA2725.png


We weren’t discussing the Free Flex binding but looked it up and it is not an “auto adjust” as you assumed. The AFD is not adjustable, the wings/the ceiling are not fixed on them and they are adjusted DOWN to set the proper AFD clearance. Even shows the “lift up” trick I talked about while testing.

So in your case, these are currently high which would give you slack in there unless you lowered the arms down. This is also the reason you’re able to shim and see the same height adjustment in your measurements as you haven’t hit the “ceiling” yet like you did with the Attacks after 2mm. So yes, the Free Flex like a Salomon STH could be shimmed up raising your actual boot height/changing the delta.
The issue is that unless you had the shim permanently attached and THEN adjust the toe wings down to properly set the AFD clearance I’d be VERY nervous of a pre-release in the case of not enough shim or no release in too much shim/no AFD clearance.
As you mentioned, only maybe try it temporarily to find your “perfect height” then shim from under the binding

Now I’m off to drink my drinking game wine! Lol
 

razie

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Put a plate under the toe piece and lift it, if it is good. You are tall, so you could use 2mm plate even. Make sure there are like three threads left on the screws to bite into the skis, otherwise you need longer screws.

They will work on one ski only.

Alternatively, put a lifter under the boot's toe and grind the top of the lip - any serious shop should be able to do that for like 50-60$ or something. Although most lifters are 3mm and you should test that much before making it permanent...
 

Noodler

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View attachment 85524

We weren’t discussing the Free Flex binding but looked it up and it is not an “auto adjust” as you assumed. The AFD is not adjustable, the wings/the ceiling are not fixed on them and they are adjusted DOWN to set the proper AFD clearance. Even shows the “lift up” trick I talked about while testing.

So in your case, these are currently high which would give you slack in there unless you lowered the arms down. This is also the reason you’re able to shim and see the same height adjustment in your measurements as you haven’t hit the “ceiling” yet like you did with the Attacks after 2mm. So yes, the Free Flex like a Salomon STH could be shimmed up raising your actual boot height/changing the delta.
The issue is that unless you had the shim permanently attached and THEN adjust the toe wings down to properly set the AFD clearance I’d be VERY nervous of a pre-release in the case of not enough shim or no release in too much shim/no AFD clearance.
As you mentioned, only maybe try it temporarily to find your “perfect height” then shim from under the binding

Now I’m off to drink my drinking game wine! Lol

The height adjustment on Freeflex is ONLY on the Freeflex EVO, not on any previous generation. You are still incorrect.

I know where the problem is, you assume that the toe will not adjust upward at all, but that's just not the case with many toes available. You are assuming that the binding toe is hard fixed with a ceiling that cannot move at all and I don't think that's the case for many binding toes. And once again, my bindings are all adjusted correctly. I'm done. You are now on ignore.
 
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ScottA

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Thanks everybody for the helpful advice!!

I have been playing around with this on the slopes the past few days (taking it in and out between individual runs to compare) and it really does feel like it is helping my posture. Sounds like a plate under the toe piece might be a way of properly changing the delta if that is in fact what is being impacted with the shim.

Based on some of the comments above, and just for interests sake, I have attached a couple of photos of my setup. I made some highly technical adjustments to the shim to make it a bit wider (ie. the original ski map stuck between two bits of credit card plastic ogsmile). The second photo is without the shim and the third is with the shim.

Shim placement.jpg


Without shim.jpg


With shim.jpg
 

GregK

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From the pictures, the boot toe height is definitely moving up which means the AFD is probably set too low allowing the front of the boot to drop below the “max height” level. Here’s how to test that AFD height.

Use one of your credit cards in the same position on top of the AFD under the boot, with the card sticking out slightly so you can grab it. With the boot locked into the binding, try sliding the credit card in and out from under the boot. It should be resisting and difficult to move that card. Adjust the AFD up until it’s hard to move the credit card around under the boot. It’s the pozidrive screw at the front of the binding closest to the ski itself. Counter clockwise to raise it.

The next step which is the most important, is to push back on the rear cuff of the boot HARD to get the toe to wheelie into it’s max height and then test with the credit card again. Very rare that it won’t need more adjustment up as there is usually some play in there.

Good luck and report back with your findings!
 
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ScottA

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Good luck and report back with your findings!

Thanks for the advice Greg. As you suggested, there was a fair bit of play above the AFD and I tightened it up. I went up the hill yesterday and certainly feel like my posture is improving which translates into better skiing. Having said that, I will need to keep working on my alignment - on the steeps, I fall into bad habits and find myself in the back of the boot, even to the point where it sometimes feels like pressure is coming from the back part of my foot on some turns, which is very far from ideal!! I'm keen to keep experimenting to reduce the toe/heel differential more to see where the sweet spot is though. A lesson with a pro to critically examine my posture is probably overdue too! Thanks again.
 

ScottB

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GregK,

I should probably stay out of this, but you are 100% correct in what you are saying and any info disputing what you are saying is wrong. I have been through this exact thing (I have 6mm shims under my toe pieces on some bindings) and had really good results. I would add 2 points that might clarify the dispute:

1. If you can put shims under your boots, it almost always means your binding is not adjusted properly. There should be 0.5 of gap (I like 0.1 mm gap personally) and anything more means the toe piece is out of adjustment. You have to force you boot toes up to contact the top of the binding before adjusting the gap. If you can get the shim under the toe, you should adjust the afd properly and then go ski. I bet you can't get a 2mm shim under the toe after properly adjusting the afd.

2. There could be bindings out there that "auto adjust" the gap and either the afd or toe wings are spring loaded. (I think I have heard of this) I don't personally own any of these, but if you have a pair, then you could put a shim under your boot and the toe might raise up and change your delta. The AFD might lower, and the delta stays the same. Noodler could have these style bindings.

Bonus 3rd point:

3. Bindings are mostly plastic, and plastic bends. It might be possible to add the 1-2mm shim under your boot and force (jam) it into the toe piece, thereby flexing or bending the binding. I actually basically did this with an AT boot that did not fit into the toe piece. I forced it in, and the wings bent, and my delta went up, but I completely compromised the release and it would be dangerous to ski on. Bending a binding is not a good thing. How much can a binding be "deformed" to accept a shimmed ski boot?? I don't know, but 2 mm is entirely possible. 6 mm is not possible. But the point is you should never be deforming your binding.
 

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