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Changes to delta angle - wow!

ScottA

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I was advised recently to fold up a bit of ski map (about 1 millimeter thick) and put it on top of the anti-friction device on the front of my binding. This was in response to feeling like I was in the back seat and having trouble getting my edges in, among other things (btw I am 6'2", weigh 190 pounds, have a 28.5 boot with BSL of 325. Bindings are Marker Griffon, ski is 185cm, 92cm underfoot).

I couldn't believe such a small change would have such a big impact. The difference in my skiing was immediate. My posture felt so much better and the level of control I had increased dramatically.

Having never heard of delta angle until I had this experience (it took me a few googles to even figure out that was what it was called), I have been reading through the large amount of information on the forum but I had a couple of additional quick questions:

- Is there any risk in putting a shim on top of the AFD from a safety perspective (e.g. effecting the bindings releasing in a crash?)
- I was going to experiment by adding another 1mm at a time. Is there any advice on how high a person should go, or is it just trial and error until you feel you have found the sweet spot?

Thanks for any advice you might have!
 

cantunamunch

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Yes. Put it under the binding if you can. At 2 mm+ you will need longer binding screws. At 6mm+ ish you start really changing the binding heel/toe angle and it's better to use tapered plates. At over 10mm you're completely changing the nature of the boot and ski - everything starts feeling different - the boot feels stiffer; the ski feels softer and the front-back balance is wrecked.
 

Philpug

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- Is there any risk in putting a shim on top of the AFD from a safety perspective (e.g. effecting the bindings releasing in a crash?)
The only one I would recommend you trying this with is the Salomon Warfden or Sth2 toe, because the AFD is static and the toe adjusts upward, you can play with the Delta here. While other bindings have toe height adjustments, the top of the toe is static and the AFD adjusts, which won't change your delta at all.
 

Erik Timmerman

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- Is there any risk in putting a shim on top of the AFD from a safety perspective (e.g. effecting the bindings releasing in a crash?)
- I was going to experiment by adding another 1mm at a time. Is there any advice on how high a person should go, or is it just trial and error until you feel you have found the sweet spot?

Thanks for any advice you might have!

It depends on the binding. Personally, I'd feel pretty comfortable with up to 3-4mm in there.
 

Andy Mink

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Once you find your sweet spot you may also adjust the sole of your boot, depending on the boot. Essentially "gas pedal" the toe with a shim on the boot. Then you don't have to mess with AFDs on the bindings on different skis assuming the bindings have the same angle. I believe the Griffons already have a higher toe in relation to the heel than many other bindings. @Philpug, is that correct?
 

Philpug

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I believe the Griffons already have a higher toe in relation to the heel than many other bindings. @Philpug, is that correct?
Yes, Marker run a flat or negative delta on many of their bindings.
 

GregK

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What I think the OP is actually experiencing is a binding that is now closer to the proper AFD height with the paper in there which would allow less unwanted play up or down in the toe piece. So it IS raising it in level to the spot the properly adjusted AFD should be. As @Philpug pointed out, only Salomon bindings toe pieces move up the actual toe height while Markers and Tyrolia move up the AFD towards a fixed toe height.

Have found both Marker and Tyrolia attack bindings seem to be famous for not being properly adjusted as far as the AFD height. This causes a loose feel and possibly pre-releases as well. Toe of the boot would be allowed to go lower in height too during movement.

With your boot in the binding, techs will test the AFD by sliding a spacer(close to business card height) under the toe/AFD area to check for a bit of resistance(should resist but never tear or crumple the business card if testing with those). The missing step some miss is to push back on the back of the boot to get it to wheelie the toe and then test again. Almost always there is still play there and you’ll need to adjust the AFD up more.

Know some of the Pro race bindings are flat from Marker and don’t know about their system bindings but the 4mm difference of the properly set up Griffon is similar to the 3-4mm of the Attack2(13/14mm toe, 17mm heel) so the Griffin is not usually a “red flag” binding for large ramp like others are/were.
 

Wilhelmson

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How does one go about raising the heel rather than the toe?
 

Lauren

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What I think the OP is actually experiencing is a binding that is now closer to the proper AFD height with the paper in there which would allow less unwanted play up or down in the toe piece. So it IS raising it in level to the spot the properly adjusted AFD should be. As @Philpug pointed out, only Salomon bindings toe pieces move up the actual toe height while Markers and Tyrolia move up the AFD towards a fixed toe height.

Thanks for clarifying this. I was trying to grasp the concept of how a shim between your boot sole and the AFD would raise your toe...and couldn't full grasp how that would change your binding's delta. I thought I was missing something about how a binding works. But what you say makes perfect sense, that you're gaining additional pressure by being able to properly pressure your toe piece, which in turn helps you engage the tips.

Further, the fact that the Warden in the only binding that does adjust the actual toe piece, rather than the AFD, might explain why those are the only bindings I've ever had that I felt like my fore/aft balance was so out of wack that I didn't know how to ski.
 

GregK

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Thanks for clarifying this. I was trying to grasp the concept of how a shim between your boot sole and the AFD would raise your toe...and couldn't full grasp how that would change your binding's delta. I thought I was missing something about how a binding works. But what you say makes perfect sense, that you're gaining additional pressure by being able to properly pressure your toe piece, which in turn helps you engage the tips.

Further, the fact that the Warden in the only binding that does adjust the actual toe piece, rather than the AFD, might explain why those are the only bindings I've ever had that I felt like my fore/aft balance was so out of wack that I didn't know how to ski.

You’re actually not really “gaining additional pressure” by adjusting the AFD properly, you’re decreasing the amount of wasted energy lost to improper tightness. Having some some slop in the toe with too low AFD, you could be moving or shifting your boot with no positive contact in the binding so it’s not reacting to movements in the boot as quickly as it should. Like having a loose bolt. By adjusting the AFD properly, now all boot/body movements aren’t “wasted” in the extra toe play so reactions are quicker and the bindings will feel more “connected” to your boots and it’s actions.

A properly adjusted Salomon would again have no play as you’re just moving the toe piece that grabs the boot toe “down onto” the boot itself. You check the toe height the same way in the Salomon. The difference is that you could add a shim under the boot toe in a Salomon binding and then raise the entire toe in order to compensate for the added shim. This would actually raise the toe height and decrease ramp. Adding shims on a Marker Griffon or Tyrolia Attack just eliminates AFD/top of the binding play and doesn’t actually raise the toe height as it’s fixed in height.

Your “out of balance on Salomon bindings” if it was a Warden 13 binding is strange as it 3.5mm difference toe to heel but not sure on the 11 or demo versions. They are a bit higher in height than an Attack or Marker though.
 
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Lauren

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Your “out of balance on Salomon bindings” if it was a Warden 13 binding is strange as it 3.5mm difference toe to heel but not sure on the 11 or demo versions. They are a bit higher in height than an Attack or Marker though.

They were the 13s. I've loved the Griffons and the Attacks in the past...just didn't mesh with the Wardens for some reason. Ended up selling them last year...messed with them a bit, but really wasn't worth the time figuring out what was wrong...too many ski days wasted on a pair of skis that I couldn't balance correctly on.

Theoretically the 3.5mm would change depending on where the toe height is? So thinking maybe I ended up with a really flat binding once it was properly adjusted when I prefer a small delta.
 

GregK

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They were the 13s. I've loved the Griffons and the Attacks in the past...just didn't mesh with the Wardens for some reason. Ended up selling them last year...messed with them a bit, but really wasn't worth the time figuring out what was wrong...too many ski days wasted on a pair of skis that I couldn't balance correctly on.

Theoretically the 3.5mm would change depending on where the toe height is? So thinking maybe I ended up with a really flat binding once it was properly adjusted when I prefer a small delta.

The Wardens are a bit higher overall but it was probably the extra weight of the Wardens you didn’t like as they are heavier than the lighter and similar weight Griffons/Attacks2.

The 3.5mm difference would be there on a properly adjusted Salomon just as there will be a 3-4mm difference always on a properly adjusted Griffon/Attack. Unless you add a shim below the boot on a Salomon binding and adjust the wings up to compensate for correct toe height.

To lower the ramp more than temporarily, shims are applied under the entire binding toe piece to raise the whole binding up a mm or whatever the shim desired is. Longer screws to attach to the ski would be needed and then the toe would again be adjusted in the normal fashion.

The OP could in theory be experiencing a higher ramp than normal as the boot toe COULD move down lower than the 4mm as the “too low” AFD isn’t at the correct height to stop it from going lower. If the tech forgot to adjust it at all, it would feel very loose and have lots of play.
 

Philpug

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Stack height and Delta are vastly overlooked when choosing a binding, this is an issue not only from brand to brand but also an inconsistency problemwithin a brand. One of the reasons we moved away from Tyrolia with their demo bindings is that they were significantly different than their retail counter part. We don't want a binding skewing our opinon of ski. The Salomon Warden demo is only 1mm different than the retail version.
 

Noodler

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What I think the OP is actually experiencing is a binding that is now closer to the proper AFD height with the paper in there which would allow less unwanted play up or down in the toe piece. So it IS raising it in level to the spot the properly adjusted AFD should be. As @Philpug pointed out, only Salomon bindings toe pieces move up the actual toe height while Markers and Tyrolia move up the AFD towards a fixed toe height.

Have found both Marker and Tyrolia attack bindings seem to be famous for not being properly adjusted as far as the AFD height. This causes a loose feel and possibly pre-releases as well. Toe of the boot would be allowed to go lower in height too during movement.

With your boot in the binding, techs will test the AFD by sliding a spacer(close to business card height) under the toe/AFD area to check for a bit of resistance(should resist but never tear or crumple the business card if testing with those). The missing step some miss is to push back on the back of the boot to get it to wheelie the toe and then test again. Almost always there is still play there and you’ll need to adjust the AFD up more.

Know some of the Pro race bindings are flat from Marker and don’t know about their system bindings but the 4mm difference of the properly set up Griffon is similar to the 3-4mm of the Attack2(13/14mm toe, 17mm heel) so the Griffin is not usually a “red flag” binding for large ramp like others are/were.

That's not it at all. The changes in ski response he describes are due to the change in delta. This wasn't about "looseness" in the coupling at the toe.
 

Noodler

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You’re actually not really “gaining additional pressure” by adjusting the AFD properly, you’re decreasing the amount of wasted energy lost to improper tightness. Having some some slop in the toe with too low AFD, you could be moving or shifting your boot with no positive contact in the binding so it’s not reacting to movements in the boot as quickly as it should. Like having a loose bolt. By adjusting the AFD properly, now all boot/body movements aren’t “wasted” in the extra toe play so reactions are quicker and the bindings will feel more “connected” to your boots and it’s actions.

A properly adjusted Salomon would again have no play as you’re just moving the toe piece that grabs the boot toe “down onto” the boot itself. You check the toe height the same way in the Salomon. The difference is that you could add a shim under the boot toe in a Salomon binding and then raise the entire toe in order to compensate for the added shim. This would actually raise the toe height and decrease ramp. Adding shims on a Marker Griffon or Tyrolia Attack just eliminates AFD/top of the binding play and doesn’t actually raise the toe height as it’s fixed in height.

Your “out of balance on Salomon bindings” if it was a Warden 13 binding is strange as it 3.5mm difference toe to heel but not sure on the 11 or demo versions. They are a bit higher in height than an Attack or Marker though.

Once again, that's not it at all. Just posting to clarify for anyone that reads this thread in the future. Sloppiness at the toe coupling has nothing directly to do with the binding delta. Yes, raising the AFD height would change the coupling tightness and possibly the resultant delta, but that's not what the OP was describing in the changes to the ski response. Increasing the toe height changes the net ramp and forward lean angles which both play into the fore/aft alignment.
 

GregK

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That's not it at all. The changes in ski response he describes are due to the change in delta. This wasn't about "looseness" in the coupling at the toe.

Once again, that's not it at all. Just posting to clarify for anyone that reads this thread in the future. Sloppiness at the toe coupling has nothing directly to do with the binding delta. Yes, raising the AFD height would change the coupling tightness and possibly the resultant delta, but that's not what the OP was describing in the changes to the ski response. Increasing the toe height changes the net ramp and forward lean angles which both play into the fore/aft alignment.

But he’s not changing the delta on a Griffon as the toe height “ceiling” is fixed on that binding. Putting a shim under a toe in a Griffon or Attack binding is just doing the exact same as raising the AFD higher which is what I’m saying. Jamming paper in there is not changing the “ceiling height” of the binding which is fixed, he’s just raising “the floor” of the AFD a different way.

Putting a shim UNDER the entire toe piece would raise the height in a Griffon or Attack. In a Salomon STH binding a shim could work below the boot toe piece OR below the actual binding as the “ceiling” is adjusted on a Salomon(as it’s not fixed) not the AFD “floor” so raising the wings/“ceiling” up a bit and then adding shims underneath the boot would actually decrease ramp.
 

Lauren

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Increasing the toe height changes the net ramp and forward lean angles which both play into the fore/aft alignment.

I see what you're saying here. I'm having a really hard time picturing how shimming between the AFD and the boot changes your delta though. I completely understand that when you shim the toe (between the binding and ski) it changes the delta (and thus your ramp and forward lean).

When I look at a binding (Griffon below), I do not see any way to increase the toe height by shims under the boot. There's the right angle on the wing (shown in the photo below) which is where the top of your boot lug will sit. My understanding is this is a fixed height that won't move up. Please correct me if I'm not understanding something.

csm_Bildschirmfoto_2017-05-11_um_11.35.19_e7b188b630.png
 

GregK

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As clearly shown in the photos, the delta does not change, just the gap between the boot and AFD to prevent movement changes.

The easiest way to think of this is a ceiling vs floor analogy with the ceiling fixed on a Griffon but floor moves up to reduce space and the floor fixed on a STH binding and the ceiling is adjust down to reduce play. With a ceiling fixed you can’t go any higher unless you shim UNDER the floor to increase overall height. With a Salomon with an adjustable ceiling, you could increase height with shim inside OR outside of the room.
 
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