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Carving Styles?

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athe0007

athe0007

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Skiing styles are just inefficiencies that a skier incorporates into their descent is what I have gleamed for previous discussions on this subject. Sticking with this rule until it is proven wrong.

Saying that there are "inefficiencies" implies that there's an ideal. You could say that Stein Eriksen's style was "inefficient," but that kind of misses the point. I now ski without poles and use lots of arm movements and I'm rarely in "correct" position. Is that inefficient? I just think it's fun. In my skiing style there's no "ideal" there's just whatever feels good and doesn't kill or injure you.
 
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athe0007

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Yeah, they do say to move up or stand up to "lighten the skis". Most instructors would prefer to talk about it in different terms these days in my experience... more about long leg/short leg, or flex to release.

As far as the carve versus skid goes... most folks would say that all turns are carves, or they are skidded in some fashion. The "brushed carve" thing is specific to PMTS and are that methods view of what a "proper" skidded turn is (as far as I understand it). They aren't carves in the usual sense at all.

Thank you for this comment. It provides me a good reality check. I'm never sure if I'm seeing things wrong. I'm glad to hear you say that it is weighting/unweighting, just different terminology, physically it's basically the same (but with less exaggeration).
 

slowrider

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Skid or Carve
St.jpg
 

dbostedo

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Thank you for this comment. It provides me a good reality check. I'm never sure if I'm seeing things wrong. I'm glad to hear you say that it is weighting/unweighting, just different terminology, physically it's basically the same (but with less exaggeration).

You might want to search here or Google for discussions on unweighting, crossover, crossunder, or "flex to release"... I'm very far from the most knowledgeable person here, but understanding those terms will probably be helpful.
 
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athe0007

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Carve. If you look at Ron LeMaster's book, Ultimate Skiing, he talks a lot about setting up a "platform" for the ski to ride on. I'm calling that a "groove." So I guess a "skid" would be whenever a ski moves laterally while on edge without creating a platform (according to the widely used terminology). I prefer to call it "slipping."
 

dbostedo

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Carve. If you look at Ron LeMaster's book, Ultimate Skiing, he talks a lot about setting up a "platform" for the ski to ride on. I'm calling that a "groove." So I guess a "skid" would be whenever a ski moves laterally while on edge without creating a platform (according to the widely used terminology). I prefer to call it "slipping."

I don't have the book handy, but I thought "platform" referred to more than just the snow. (i.e. more than the groove the ski makes in the snow). Anyone have the reference handy?
 
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athe0007

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I don't have the book handy, but I thought "platform" referred to more than just the snow. (i.e. more than the groove the ski makes in the snow). Anyone have the reference handy?

Page 19: "The ski has to penetrate the snow, cutting a platform in it that will support you, and the angle between that platform and the force you apply to it, the platform angle must be 90 degrees or smaller. If the angle is greater than 90 degrees, the platform will slope away from you, and the ski will slip."

[Too many commas. ;-) ]
 

Viking9

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Why do we freak out over the term UNWEIGHT.
Wherever and Whenever I get a chance to spot an expert skier he is always unweighting and skiing with some sort of independent leg action.
There was a great video from those gold guys that are always skiing fresh powder,blue bird sky’s in Idaho ( almost always on Rossignol powder skis ) and the old guys are unweighting and making beautiful effortless turns and then you see one of their kids making turns on his fatty’s and of course junior is surfing his turns with no unweighting.
 

Rod9301

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You always transitions with unweighing.
The issue is up unweighing, which is inefficient and slow.

Most racers use only flex to release, faster and it has a lot more advantages.

The old turns in powder, bouncing up and down were needed with skinny skis.

Now the powder turn looks just like on groomers.
 

Josh Matta

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youi can transition with no unweighting at all, its not needed.

but sometimes unweighting is better...
 

Viking9

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Yeah but don’t you guys still love that feeling of coming up and going back down in powder??
Of course you don’t have to now a days but it’s a proven Style that is still a blast.
RHYTHM AND MELODY !!
 

Josh Matta

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François Pugh

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You don't have to unweight to transition; you can always maintain a downwards force during transition. What you have to do is stop applying any turning force, or the turn won't end.

However, as your time-averaged downward force must be equal to your weight, it is sometimes best to apply more downwards force when it's needed most and less at other times (like transition) for higher performance skiing.
 

Rod9301

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youi can transition with no unweighting at all, its not needed.

but sometimes unweighting is better...
Actually, very true. I do this in bumps, i think harb calls it a weighted release.

I was just trying to keep it simple.

I still don't like the bouncing up and down in powder.
 

raisingarizona

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Skipped through this thread, reading what I could.

Now my brain hurts.

Style is everything. That’s all I got.
 

markojp

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Most racers use only flex to release, faster and it has a lot more advantages.

FWIW, If one refers to the numerous images and passages in Ron LeMaster's book as an example, you'll see that racers employ a number of different release and turn types depending on the event and what tactics/terrain dictate. He writes and supports his thoughts with clear photographic evidence.
 

Doug Briggs

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I just copied this post by Troy Watts from the 'same' thread on a FB page. Troy is a well respected coach from Breckenridge, CO and former US Team Racer.

My take, when a WC athlete weights, unweights, counter-weights, tips, rotate the legs, couter-acts, manages pressure, blocks a pole plant, or stems (as Bode does when appropriate), there is a clear intention there that is tempered by the reality that the end result is measured by the hundredth, which means that the integrity of the ski in the snow and conservation of momentum between the wand and the eye are the only thing that matters, where form must absolutely follow function, where technique and tactics become one and the same.

Learning to ski is different than learning to race if for no other reason than the vast majority of skiers learned (and habituated) how to use the skis as a brake pedal long before (if ever) realizing it was a gas pedal too. Some of the fundamental movement patterns for creating and maintaining speed, regardless of the lexicon used to describe them (e.g. PSIA, PMTS, or scientology) are 180 degrees out of phase with those of braking. If Harald's intent is to race fast, he fails, but if the intent of his movements is control with nice body lines on varying terrain and surfaces, he does quite well.

Semantics at times frustratingly rule the day when comparing one teaching method to the other; let's not forget that the rest of the world also have their own ideas about teaching and doing this sport, some of them very successfully. Pro tip: if anyone would like to build a career for themselves, simply invent a dictionary of brand new terms to describe how we move, file for copyright protection, and state repeatedly that everyone else is wrong.

At the end of the day I'm reminded of the text of the Shurangama Sutra explaining how teaching only serves as a guidepost to the truth, e.g. PSIA, PMTS, and the like are the fingers that point to the skiing we seek, but only so we can experience the skiing directly ourselves.
 

Rod9301

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FWIW, If one refers to the numerous images and passages in Ron LeMaster's book as an example, you'll see that racers employ a number of different release and turn types depending on the event and what tactics/terrain dictate. He writes and supports his thoughts with clear photographic evidence.
Yes, but the book was written make years ago.

Look at Marcel and you will not see anything else, except maybe in a recovery
 

Doby Man

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"Pro tip: if anyone would like to build a career for themselves, simply invent a dictionary of brand new terms to describe how we move, file for copyright protection, and state repeatedly that everyone else is wrong." - Troy Watts

Ha! Pretty clear who he is referring to here. Rename a previously existing fundamental movement and claim the movement as your own invention.
 

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