trouts2

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Link to a demo of CARV by Tom Gillie on Youtube.

I asked Tom Gillie if he had done anything with CARV since doing the video. He said no. I have yet to find reviews that were positive. There were only a few and most described operational flaws, software glitches, wonky data along with some usable features.
 

Ryan Dietrich

Putting on skis
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I was super interested in this, until I found this guys video (Posted January 2019!)


Yikes. Maybe wait for version 3.0
 

trouts2

All camber, on edge, all day.
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I found questions could be asked to CARV at their website so asked a few an got the following responses.

Can CARV be set say for edge angle only with beeping. For example can 25 to 40 degrees edge angle be set so that every time the skier is 25 or above up to 40 degrees CARV will be and not beep when at or 42 degrees?

1. Carv levels cannot be set by the user. While we are considering such a feature however we want to make sure all users go through the same process and do not try to skip too far ahead.

Can CARV levels be set by the user? Can specific skills be set for feedback at every turn versus a summary at the end? For example can I set edging and pressure only for a run say of 10 turns and get feedback on that?

2. Yes you can receive feedback on a run of just 10 turns, It just means you will not get an overall Ski IQ as this needs at least 30 turns.

Can Carv be set for a range of edge angles? (Similar to question 1.)

3. Carv Cannot be set for beeping between a range of target edge angles. The edge angle monitor will tell you your edge angle on every-turn.

Is an Android version still in the works?

4. Carv still plan to release Android for the upcoming 2019/20 ski season and should function just like the apple app!

Can Carv data be downloaded to something like Excel for evaluation?

5. Raw data cannot be downloaded into an excel sheet however can be viewed. The team is currently.

Can a user stop and stop Carv during a run? For example on a long trail you only want to have data for two short sections of the run?

6. Yes parts of a ski run can be isolated, this just requires a skier to get their phone out, stop the freesession mode, and then start a new freesession mode.

Does carve still include the feature of video synced with run data? (This relates to the video evaluation done by Tom Gellie on Youtube where he posted video of a skier on one side with a live Carv data stream on the other side.)

7. Carv currently offers the video mode 'beta' feature which allows a user to see exactly the pressure, edge angle as well as many other stats at all points of a run.
 

James

Skiing the powder
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If you listen to Tom Gellie's interview with Ron LeMaster they talk about Carve a bit. LeMaster wasn't familiar with it but was skeptical of the bottom of the foot pressure maps. His point was the tongue/front of the boot, and the back can throw off a bottom of the foot sensor. His point was you need bottom of the boot pressure sensors to be accurate of the forces.

http://www.podcastgarden.com/podcast/globalskiing
 

trouts2

All camber, on edge, all day.
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@James Gellie said there were 24 sensors in the foot pads he demoed. I think there are now 40 per pad. I saw the Gellie interview before. The criticism was not a show stopper for me or enlightening. I can’t imagine a design crew so lame it did not realize the influence of the boot and other things in the concept phase of the design.

LeMasters comments were on one data point versus the rest of CARV.

If CARV is reliable in giving the same values for what it senses run to run, and it likely is, then the data from the foot pads may still be useful.

Although it does not isolate foot pressure only, the gathered data can give a gross overall resultant reading that includes the effects of the boot. That would be useful. The amount of forward and aft can estimated also from the relative reading run to run of different types of runs. That is, the foot pad is recording the foot pressure along with the boot but possibly the boot effect can be estimated out say with the g-force reading. Gravity, turn g’s, type of turn slalom/GS, slope angle and lots of other things contribute to overall pressure your foot is exerting on the pads. So the data is a little funky to start with even without considering the boot.

It may be possible to get values for heal, big toe and little toe and them in total. Those may be determinable with or without the effect of the boot subbed out. It is tough to say what can be done with the data without having it.

I have an app that records sleeping noise at night. The cell is left on the bed and the accelerometer records any mattress movement. The app produces graphs of sound, movement and estimates light sleep, deep sleep and REM sleep. It has a timeline of when recording was triggered so that can be compared to the sound and movement graphs in time.

It is funky data but seems accurate in that it produces graphs that are reliable; seem accurate night to night to night. The accelerometer readings have no absolute values but the relative sizes however inaccurate seem to be the same night to night. So it is in a sense more-or-less type data versus some linear exact measure. The data is of one gross event, one night’s sleep. I think the CARV data may be useful in the same way but accessibility an issue to get granularity considering a run of 50 turns.

The data in the Gellie video seems like it would be useful. A single turn could be focused on with g-force, boot angle, lateral lean, total pressure and with a video image. But I’m not sure how the data can be looked at. If it is all done on the cell then that would mean having a tiny screen to finger scroll through. If all the data is on one screen then probably too cumbersome to look through. The feedback from CARV was that data is not downloadable to Excell. It may not be downloadable any nonproprietary app. That makes the data fairly inaccessible. Getting beeps and a ski IQ score seems fairly useless. I don’t know how you get access to say g-force and boot angles for individual turns in a run in a way that is useful, filterable and easily accessible.

The LeMaster take on CARV is at minute 24 of the video link James posted.
 

Tony S

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I can’t imagine a design crew so lame it did not realize the influence of the boot and other things in the concept phase of the design.
I can TOTALLY imagine that if they're not very very good skiers and movement analysts.
 

trouts2

All camber, on edge, all day.
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CARV put more information/documentation on their website last week. They have a FAQ section that is interesting. Below are two snips of some of that info.

@James @Tony S It looks like they did consider the boot with an estimate. Their fore/aft measure is under balance. It seems to be a sum of fore/aft and lateral. That shows up as a more-to-less number below. I'm not sure if the raw data can be accessed to step point to point through a turn.

So how does this device deal with front boot cuff/shin pressures?

Written by Jamie Salter
Updated over a week ago

Our sensors measure the pressure distribution across the bottom of the foot. We estimate the shin/ cuff pressures based on the total distribution across the foot.

What does Carv measure and what are the metrics?

Written by Jamie Salter
Updated over a week ago

Carv measures over 70 metrics on every turn which broadly fit into four distinct categories: balance, edging, rotary and pressure.

For each category, there are a number of core metrics that dominate the score. A description of each of these core metrics can be found in the app by pressing the info button when reviewing your Ski IQ, as shown in the image below:

upload_2019-5-17_9-37-46.png


Here's a description of each of the core metrics in more detail if you don't have the app to hand...

Balance

Balance refers to your forward / back and lateral position. To keep a well balanced position, bend your knees, keep your hips centered and over the feet and visualise keeping your nose over your toes.

Front:back force ratio

How far forward (or back) you are in your boots. A low value means you are leaning too far back. This is a very common problem and will reduce the pressure on the front edges of your ski, reducing control. It will also move your centre of balance away from centre, which will make you more unstable over bumps and ice. To increase this metric, move your weight forward until you can feel pressure under the ball of you foot and 'attack' the slope!

Edging

Edging movements adjust the edge angle of the skis in relation to the snow which causes the skis to slip, skid or carve. Good edging involves inclination of your legs while maintaining balance over the ski.

Edge similarity

The amount you tilt your skis at a similar angle on every turn. This metric compares the angle of each of your skis within the turn. Tilting the outer ski more than the inner ski is called 'A-framing' and is a common problem for intermediate skiers. This causes both skis to turn with a different radius and can lead to one of your skis skidding rather than carving.

Max. edge angle

The angle with which you tilt your skis relative to the slope. A higher edge angle can hold larger forces and can be achieved at higher speeds. It's a general indication of your ski performance.

Max edge duration

The amount of the turn your edge is engaged. To increase this metric, try to engage your edge earlier in the turn, and hold it throughout the turn.

Turn symmetry

On average, how similar your edging is between your skis. This is similar to the 'edge similarity' metric, but rather than compare your edging on every turn, this metric compares your average turn. This metric is also reflected in the average turn heatmap. If your left and right skis have similar colours (meaning they show similar average edge angles at each part of the turn), you will have a higher score.

Turn comparison

For this metric, Carv calculates which turn (either to the left or the right) is stronger. This metric is similar to turn symmetry, but instead of comparing your left and right skis, it compares your left and right turns.

Rotary

Rotary (a.k.a. steering) movements involve turning parts of the body relative to others. Rotary movements should originate in the feet and legs, while the upper body is stable and quiet (minimal rotary).

Turn smoothness

How smoothly you move your skis through the turn. A jerky and inconsistent turn will give you a worse score. Smooth skiing is more efficient. To improve this metric focus on linking the initiation, control and completion of the turn into one fluid motion so that they're not a distinct set of phases but rather a continuous process.

Turn symmetry (previously called 'Parallel Index')

Measures how well your skis move together. Try to keep your skis parallel throughout the entire turn and moving as one to improve this score.

Pressure

Pressure refers to the forces developing on the ski through the turn. Good pressure control is to extend to and balance on the new outside ski at the beginning of the turn and flex at the end of the turn.

Pressure control

How you build up pressure against the ski. The turn should be one fluid motion as you load up the ski into the transition of the turn and then release that pressure back down during completion. A jerky application of pressure will reduce this score.

Inside:eek:utside pressure

How much pressure you place on the outside ski versus the inside ski. The outside ski (i.e. the ski further out from the turn centre) should have more pressure. A common problem among intermediate skiers is leaning too far into the turn and placing too much pressure on the inside ski. This will reduce the amount of grip and make you more unstable over bumps and ice.

Turn symmetry

On average, how similar the application of pressure is between your left and right feet.

Turn comparison

For this metric, Carv calculates which turn (either to the left or the right) is stronger. This metric is similar to turn symmetry, but instead of comparing your left and right skis, it compares your left and right turns.
 

Tricia

The Velvet Hammer
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If you listen to Tom Gellie's interview with Ron LeMaster they talk about Carve a bit. LeMaster wasn't familiar with it but was skeptical of the bottom of the foot pressure maps. His point was the tongue/front of the boot, and the back can throw off a bottom of the foot sensor. His point was you need bottom of the boot pressure sensors to be accurate of the forces.

http://www.podcastgarden.com/podcast/globalskiing
There are some good interviews there. Thanks for sharing.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
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Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,000
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
CARV put more information/documentation on their website last week. They have a FAQ section that is interesting. Below are two snips of some of that info.

@James @Tony S It looks like they did consider the boot with an estimate. Their fore/aft measure is under balance. It seems to be a sum of fore/aft and lateral. That shows up as a more-to-less number below. I'm not sure if the raw data can be accessed to step point to point through a turn.

So how does this device deal with front boot cuff/shin pressures?

Written by Jamie Salter
Updated over a week ago

Our sensors measure the pressure distribution across the bottom of the foot. We estimate the shin/ cuff pressures based on the total distribution across the foot.

What does Carv measure and what are the metrics?

Written by Jamie Salter
Updated over a week ago

Carv measures over 70 metrics on every turn which broadly fit into four distinct categories: balance, edging, rotary and pressure.

For each category, there are a number of core metrics that dominate the score. A description of each of these core metrics can be found in the app by pressing the info button when reviewing your Ski IQ, as shown in the image below:

View attachment 74117

Here's a description of each of the core metrics in more detail if you don't have the app to hand...

Balance

Balance refers to your forward / back and lateral position. To keep a well balanced position, bend your knees, keep your hips centered and over the feet and visualise keeping your nose over your toes.

Front:back force ratio

How far forward (or back) you are in your boots. A low value means you are leaning too far back. This is a very common problem and will reduce the pressure on the front edges of your ski, reducing control. It will also move your centre of balance away from centre, which will make you more unstable over bumps and ice. To increase this metric, move your weight forward until you can feel pressure under the ball of you foot and 'attack' the slope!

Edging

Edging movements adjust the edge angle of the skis in relation to the snow which causes the skis to slip, skid or carve. Good edging involves inclination of your legs while maintaining balance over the ski.

Edge similarity

The amount you tilt your skis at a similar angle on every turn. This metric compares the angle of each of your skis within the turn. Tilting the outer ski more than the inner ski is called 'A-framing' and is a common problem for intermediate skiers. This causes both skis to turn with a different radius and can lead to one of your skis skidding rather than carving.

Max. edge angle

The angle with which you tilt your skis relative to the slope. A higher edge angle can hold larger forces and can be achieved at higher speeds. It's a general indication of your ski performance.

Max edge duration

The amount of the turn your edge is engaged. To increase this metric, try to engage your edge earlier in the turn, and hold it throughout the turn.

Turn symmetry

On average, how similar your edging is between your skis. This is similar to the 'edge similarity' metric, but rather than compare your edging on every turn, this metric compares your average turn. This metric is also reflected in the average turn heatmap. If your left and right skis have similar colours (meaning they show similar average edge angles at each part of the turn), you will have a higher score.

Turn comparison

For this metric, Carv calculates which turn (either to the left or the right) is stronger. This metric is similar to turn symmetry, but instead of comparing your left and right skis, it compares your left and right turns.

Rotary

Rotary (a.k.a. steering) movements involve turning parts of the body relative to others. Rotary movements should originate in the feet and legs, while the upper body is stable and quiet (minimal rotary).

Turn smoothness

How smoothly you move your skis through the turn. A jerky and inconsistent turn will give you a worse score. Smooth skiing is more efficient. To improve this metric focus on linking the initiation, control and completion of the turn into one fluid motion so that they're not a distinct set of phases but rather a continuous process.

Turn symmetry (previously called 'Parallel Index')

Measures how well your skis move together. Try to keep your skis parallel throughout the entire turn and moving as one to improve this score.

Pressure

Pressure refers to the forces developing on the ski through the turn. Good pressure control is to extend to and balance on the new outside ski at the beginning of the turn and flex at the end of the turn.

Pressure control

How you build up pressure against the ski. The turn should be one fluid motion as you load up the ski into the transition of the turn and then release that pressure back down during completion. A jerky application of pressure will reduce this score.

Inside:eek:utside pressure

How much pressure you place on the outside ski versus the inside ski. The outside ski (i.e. the ski further out from the turn centre) should have more pressure. A common problem among intermediate skiers is leaning too far into the turn and placing too much pressure on the inside ski. This will reduce the amount of grip and make you more unstable over bumps and ice.

Turn symmetry

On average, how similar the application of pressure is between your left and right feet.

Turn comparison

For this metric, Carv calculates which turn (either to the left or the right) is stronger. This metric is similar to turn symmetry, but instead of comparing your left and right skis, it compares your left and right turns.
A lot of the suggestions are suspect and lead me to wonder about the usefulness of the device, although the data may be separated from the coaching.
 

James

Skiing the powder
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Posts
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You'd be better off syncing drone video from overhead with ground video. But that takes other people.
 

Mattadvproject

Love that powder!
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Aurora, CO
Carv sent me a unit last week that I'm going to try. I haven't had a chance to take it onto the snow yet but when I do, I will happily write a report on it. I'm excited by it's potential. It will be interesting to see if the units have changed since the YouTube video reviews mentioned here, as they now more than a year old. I think the Gellie review has more impact for me (even though it's more than 2 years old now) and I think he sees the potential of the device with all of the metrics it can provide. I found the Twist review (more than 1 year old) to be less insightful. Most of the video is him struggling to put the device together as he hasn't read the instructions and then the important stuff (the review of how he actually went using the device on snow) was glossed over. It's interesting to note therefore the difference in opinion of a veteran instructor (Tom Gellie) and a member of the general skiing public (that is an assumption on my part that Josh Twist is not an industry veteran, my apologies if I am incorrect in this assumption).

I think that's what interests me the most is the level of data that the device can show me. I don't get too much opportunity to be given feedback on my skiing and I'm always interested to learn and improve. I can have people film me (but realistically if that happens it only happens early season when I'm not overseas guiding) and I can look at that footage for feedback. A lot of that feedback depends on the quality of the video though. I can also feel things in my skiing and focus on them too and make adjustments accordingly, but now for the first time I have a device that I can hopefully use to generate hard data about what is working well and what isn't whilst skiing. I've not had access to information like that before and I'm excited to see what information I can gain and how I can use it to affect change. This is a whole new scope of learning and that's an exciting prospect. Other sports have developed digital technology to measure performance and now skiing has that opportunity too.

It's important to note that I didn't pay for my device, it was given to me by Carv to review, but I will try to keep my reviews open and honest. As a ski instructor I'm looking to see if I can use these devices for the future and if they are a useful tool for my clients. Can they be integrated into a successful lesson plan and give additional feedback/metrics that I couldn't give my client or are they a distraction? Hopefully my eye and the hard data from Carv can integrate seamlessly. I'm probably more interested in the free-training metrics but will definitely check out the lesson programs to see if they have value as well.

I'm happy to post my findings on this thread or write a new one, whatever is easiest. Hopefully I can get out on snow next week to try the units for the first time......

- Matt
 

Rod9301

Out on the slopes
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Jan 11, 2016
Posts
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Xz
its a flawed premise that your in balance should be on the ball of your foot. So flawed that I think using this product and trying to keep it from beeping at you could potentially make someone a worse skier.

BTW I am not nervous about being replaced, I would love to use something like this if it was based on actually movements and balanced, not what some well meaning but ill informed creator decided was right and wrong.
Exactly, i don't know where the idea of weight on the ball of your foot started, butt it's wrong.
 

dbostedo

Asst. Gathermeister-- Jackson Hole 2020
Moderator
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i don't know where the idea of weight on the ball of your foot started
Possibly from a lot of other sports (football, basketball, soccer, etc.) where a "ready stance" has the weight on the balls of your feet because you can react/push off/begin to move any direction faster from that position.
 

Noodler

Back in the game! :)
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Any device that has the "potential" to degrade the boot fit is a non-starter for me. I just don't think any of my boot setups can take even an additional 1mm under my foot. Maybe if I had this in hand before final fitting and incorporated it into the setup it might be doable.
 

mikes781

Booting up
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Joined
Mar 30, 2018
Posts
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Location
NJ
Carv sent me a unit last week that I'm going to try. I haven't had a chance to take it onto the snow yet but when I do, I will happily write a report on it. I'm excited by it's potential. It will be interesting to see if the units have changed since the YouTube video reviews mentioned here, as they now more than a year old. I think the Gellie review has more impact for me (even though it's more than 2 years old now) and I think he sees the potential of the device with all of the metrics it can provide. I found the Twist review (more than 1 year old) to be less insightful. Most of the video is him struggling to put the device together as he hasn't read the instructions and then the important stuff (the review of how he actually went using the device on snow) was glossed over. It's interesting to note therefore the difference in opinion of a veteran instructor (Tom Gellie) and a member of the general skiing public (that is an assumption on my part that Josh Twist is not an industry veteran, my apologies if I am incorrect in this assumption).

I think that's what interests me the most is the level of data that the device can show me. I don't get too much opportunity to be given feedback on my skiing and I'm always interested to learn and improve. I can have people film me (but realistically if that happens it only happens early season when I'm not overseas guiding) and I can look at that footage for feedback. A lot of that feedback depends on the quality of the video though. I can also feel things in my skiing and focus on them too and make adjustments accordingly, but now for the first time I have a device that I can hopefully use to generate hard data about what is working well and what isn't whilst skiing. I've not had access to information like that before and I'm excited to see what information I can gain and how I can use it to affect change. This is a whole new scope of learning and that's an exciting prospect. Other sports have developed digital technology to measure performance and now skiing has that opportunity too.

It's important to note that I didn't pay for my device, it was given to me by Carv to review, but I will try to keep my reviews open and honest. As a ski instructor I'm looking to see if I can use these devices for the future and if they are a useful tool for my clients. Can they be integrated into a successful lesson plan and give additional feedback/metrics that I couldn't give my client or are they a distraction? Hopefully my eye and the hard data from Carv can integrate seamlessly. I'm probably more interested in the free-training metrics but will definitely check out the lesson programs to see if they have value as well.

I'm happy to post my findings on this thread or write a new one, whatever is easiest. Hopefully I can get out on snow next week to try the units for the first time......

- Matt
I’ll be interested to hear your feedback as an instructor. My wife got me one last season and I have about 20 days on them. I returned to skiing after a 20 year break 2 years ago so I’m still a hack. I used feedback from it and some private instruction sessions and felt like I made some good progress last year as a result. Shared some of the feedback with my instructor during lift rides and it was consistent with what he was seeing in my skiing. For the most part the feedback was consistent with what I was feeling but there were some times where it left me scratching my head. I’m pretty skeptical about the fore aft balance numbers since they didn’t deviate much for me I’d like to think that I’m just good and consistent but know better. There were the occasional runs that I felt myself in my backseat but the numbers didn’t reflect that. Might be how they averaged. Here are some examples of the output.
613AC3FA-BA68-4556-8C51-0A03ABB814D6.png

64AAAB7A-9716-4609-A07C-515EAA3FD42E.png
B8D1B134-C9E2-4E49-9CB1-FB5DE0731A84.png
C5BF3B99-0625-4F80-AA8E-C04E6FCD8295.png
E663920B-7542-4513-9F12-3F4C80F09CCE.png
 
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Wannabeskibum

Getting on the lift
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Boston
Any device that has the "potential" to degrade the boot fit is a non-starter for me. I just don't think any of my boot setups can take even an additional 1mm under my foot. Maybe if I had this in hand before final fitting and incorporated it into the setup it might be doable.
I just got these and installed them underneath my footbed and over a wood shim that is in my boot - (the wood shim was put in last year by my fitter so that I can get a better fit for my narrow heal as the boots have packed out some from use). The result now being that I can keep my heel well anchored in the boot with less cranking of the third buckle. I have used them now for 5 days of skiing in "free ski mode", i.e. they record the data and I look at after the end of the day. For what its worth, from their most recent information that is in the app, the score of 200 is supposed to represent a PSIA Level 3 examiner, a score of 100 is considered an average skier, but have no idea if average means level 5 intermediate or level 7 advanced intermediate. I am still figuring out what changes in my skiing influence the scoring - most of what I can tell is that the more one can initiate the turn from the feet/ankle and then progress up the leg - the higher your ski IQ. My understanding (which may be completely wrong) is that the metrics most influenced by the above will be pressure and edging. I have a well honed ability to be able to initiate turns in my hips, but without ever winding up in the back seat or tipped back into the slope, so I am trying to make the lower leg steering more ingrained in my skiing.
 

MikeW Philly

Booting up
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King of Prussia, PA
Any updated feedback from any of the Carv users here? I'm finally getting back to real skiing each year now that my wife has picked it up. And I do usually a day to 2 days of private lessons each year but I wonder if I could get value from something like this. I don't expect it to replace lessons but just wondering if other users here have found it useful for just consistent feedback on positioning and turning? It seems like it would be good to just have a reminder when your form slips so to speak and a way to ingrained better habits - but thats what I would imagine the value would be here in the product.
 

Wannabeskibum

Getting on the lift
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Any updated feedback from any of the Carv users here? I'm finally getting back to real skiing each year now that my wife has picked it up. And I do usually a day to 2 days of private lessons each year but I wonder if I could get value from something like this. I don't expect it to replace lessons but just wondering if other users here have found it useful for just consistent feedback on positioning and turning? It seems like it would be good to just have a reminder when your form slips so to speak and a way to ingrained better habits - but thats what I would imagine the value would be here in the product.
Hi -
See my post above - the only other thing that I can add is that I made by profile "public" on their site and that allowed me to see how my SkiIQ compared. The highest skiIQ that I saw for this season was around 150, my highest based on six days was 131. I do find the results instructive and I will try to make some changes to see if that changes the score (or my skiing)
 
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