Carbon huh??

[scott43]

Not for Sagan!
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pet...tubeless-tyres-in-down-under-classic-gallery/

 

[Plai]

The fork is still carbon.

I'm wondering about vibration absorption. Don't see the usual zert inserts or flex points in the frame, seat posts. The tires also don't seem to be over sized. I'm guessing the need for power transmission is priority over comfort.

Given all the hype about the stiffness of carbon, it surprised me to read this Allez (aluminum) frame was stiffer than the tarmac (carbon) cousin.

How long (distance) is this style of race? I'm wondering if it's short enough to just put up with it for an hour or so. As a recreational rider, once I got past an hour ride, comfort became more of a priority.

 

[Tom K.]

Interesting.

Of course, Sagan could probably win on just about any reasonable bike, but still interesting.

 

[scott43]

Interesting.

Of course, Sagan could probably win on just about any reasonable bike, but still interesting.

Yeah I think it's a bit of a publicity stunt. And you're right about Sagan. Still, for the average schlop like me who may think they NEED carbon..well..you probably don't. $1200 for that frame and you're rolling deep.

 

[martyg]

The fork is still carbon.

Given all the hype about the stiffness of carbon, it surprised me to read this Allez (aluminum) frame was stiffer than the tarmac (carbon) cousin.

How long (distance) is this style of race? I'm wondering if it's short enough to just put up with it for an hour or so. As a recreational rider, once I got past an hour ride, comfort became more of a priority.

The tarmac is engineered to be a well-rounded race bike - suitable for a road race or crit. As such you want to design in some degree of absorption for rider comfort and a small degree of suspension to aid with forward momentum. I'm actually playing with the idea of a Allez as a dedicated crit bike, since that is where my strengths are. It wouldn't be an everyday rider for me though. Too stiff and to harsh for our roads.

Crits are closed courses - lots of corning. Lots of jumping. Lots of bike handling. Typically 30 - 60 minutes depending on your age and cat.

 

[scott43]

The fork is still carbon.

I'm wondering about vibration absorption. Don't see the usual zert inserts or flex points in the frame, seat posts. The tires also don't seem to be over sized. I'm guessing the need for power transmission is priority over comfort.

Given all the hype about the stiffness of carbon, it surprised me to read this Allez (aluminum) frame was stiffer than the tarmac (carbon) cousin.

How long (distance) is this style of race? I'm wondering if it's short enough to just put up with it for an hour or so. As a recreational rider, once I got past an hour ride, comfort became more of a priority.

A lot of the carbon stuff is hype. I think it's still the best material..if you're not putting any weight (pardon the pun) on $$. Tires have a huge effect on ride quality. 10 psi can drown out any difference in frame material.

 

[Jersey Skier]

It only says he's gonna try it in the Crit and then see how it goes. I think he can handle the harshness of an alloy frame for an hour. Let's see if he uses it for something longer.

 

[Plai]

Crits are closed courses - lots of corning. Lots of jumping. Lots of bike handling. Typically 30 - 60 minutes depending on your age and cat.

Now the lack of suspension makes sense (to me). Thanks.

 

[martyg]

A lot of the carbon stuff is hype. I think it's still the best material..if you're not putting any weight (pardon the pun) on $$. Tires have a huge effect on ride quality. 10 psi can drown out any difference in frame material.

While I am not a composites engineer, at the last company I owned we worked a bit with various composite materials. Can't agree with that statement. I do however agree with your observation on tire pressure.

Most riders, however, are lazy and don't want accountability. So they'd rather just spend money on a piece of equipment than have baseline physiological, blood work done with an outfit like InsideTracker, Retul bike fit, work with a coach, do roll-out tests to determine most efficient tire pressures, etc.

All of the above leads to efficiencies. a few points here, a few points there and you are a much more efficient. All of the above also leads to accountability. You're race results suck? Let's look at your training log and metrics. Tires rode harsh? Did you bother to check them with a digital gauge?

In the end, like skiing and so many other domains, people are lazy. They'd rather bitch about equipment than do the hard work to explore hone their craft.

 

[cantunamunch]

The fork is still carbon.

I'm wondering about vibration absorption. Don't see the usual zert inserts or flex points in the frame, seat posts. The tires also don't seem to be over sized. I'm guessing the need for power transmission is priority over comfort.
.

Look at the bike again. There's 50 mm of cf damping built into the rims. And if he's running tubeless, he's got *plenty* of vibration absorption, without getting the frame involved.

This is the future. Small-excursion vibration damping in the frame - I'm not talking about actual suspension travel- is a complete kludge, a bandaid on the root problem.

Given all the hype about the stiffness of carbon, it surprised me to read this Allez (aluminum) frame was stiffer than the tarmac (carbon) cousin.

Carbon is extremely stiff for it's weight and the direction of stiffness can be controlled. That directionality means you can have stiffness and damping both. Carbon is not the stiffest material by volume, not by a long shot. The problem is that all the other, stiffer materials are heavier and the stiffness is isotropic, so no damping can be engineered by clever layup.

Of course, distinctions like that are completely lost on the popular press and so you get marketing and hype both.

So, what does that tell us? Ans: Spesh didn't give a flying flip about weight margins on this bike and wanted something that would be cheap for it's strength and relatively stiff for disc braking stresses.

How long (distance) is this style of race? I'm wondering if it's short enough to just put up with it for an hour or so. As a recreational rider, once I got past an hour ride, comfort became more of a priority.

The Down Under Classic is a criterium race, exactly 90 minutes plus one lap. The overwhelming priorities in a crit race are: cornering, stiffness under burst acceleration, cornering, robustness in a collision, and cornering.

It is rather interesting that, as a US bike rider, you are not familiar with crit bikes. It is possibly a bit of a generational thing. Criterium racing was invented for US audiences, and up through the early 2000, the overwhelming majority of non-custom bikes sold in the US were crit bikes, with high bottom brackets, short chainstays and snappy handling that could hold a line in a corner at absolutely astonishing lean angles - while the rider continues to pedal.

Anyway, Sagan lost the crit stage and so we're back to our regular winter programming.

 

[Plai]

Look at the bike again. There's 50 mm of cf damping built into the rims. And if he's running tubeless, he's got *plenty* of vibration absorption, without getting the frame involved.

Hmmmm saw the tall carbon rims. Had heard that's an aero advantage. Didn't realize it's also vibration dampening.

As recreational rider, carbon rims hasn't been on my short list of easy (read ''cheap") improvements.

 

[Eleeski]

Anyway, Sagan lost the crit stage and so we're back to our regular winter programming.

Second place is losing? Sounds like the bike worked pretty well to avoid all the crashes and still get Sagan a look at the victory. Congratulations to Ewan!

Eric

 

[cantunamunch]

Second place is losing?
Eric

From the marketing standpoint of a company that has used crit bikes with the 'Epic' name to drive road bike sales since before they won the 1988 National Crit Championship, yes, it is.

 

[scott43]

My dad always said, second is the first loser..

 

[tch]

^^^ Was your dad related to the Great Santini?

 

[Tom K.]

Hmmmm saw the tall carbon rims. Had heard that's an aero advantage. Didn't realize it's also vibration dampening.

In general, with all other things being equal, taller carbon rims are more aero and stiffer than shorter ones.

Second place is losing?

Correct. Also referred to as "first loser".

 

[cantunamunch]

As recreational rider, carbon rims hasn't been on my short list of easy (read ''cheap") improvements.

You still have a rim brake frame, yeh? There's gobs of soon-to--be-orphaned 100/130 wheelsets out there, keep an eye out.

 

[Plai]

You still have a rim brake frame, yeh? There's gobs of soon-to--be-orphaned 100/130 wheelsets out there, keep an eye out.

Yeah, I know disc brakes are the next thing. Compared weight of my 2014 roubaix vs a friend's 2017 with disc brakes. Mine was much lighter, even with a near full 20oz water and his with none. Not really sure I need the braking power. I can already skid with mine down steep roads and wear out my hands.

I'm also thinking I'll also wait for the technology to bake in a bit. [Read: Paul will wait for rich newbies to sell off their seldom ridden toys for cheap. :-]

 

[Eleeski]

Hmmm, Sagan got a bunch of second places on his way to winning last year's green jersey. Impressive performance for both Ewan AND Sagan.

Eric

 

[newfydog]

It only says he's gonna try it in the Crit and then see how it goes. I think he can handle the harshness of an alloy frame for an hour. Let's see if he uses it for something longer.

OMG, could he actually survive over an hour without carbon???? From 1995-2005 aluminum bikes were all over the pro peloton. Pantani, Cipollini racked up lots of wins on them. I have one here in my basement, a Scott, which won a major US stage race. (I didn't ride it, but a teammate of Armstrong and Hampsten did).