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Carbon Fibre - Outside Online Article

Ross Biff

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I used to ride a Cervelo R 2.5.- carbon tubes into carbon lugs. Terrific bike to ride until one day it just began to feel "off" if I rode it with any gusto..I never found any external cracks or delam but wondered about the internals. I eventually gave the frame to a friend as an indoor trainer. I still ride carbon road and xc MTB frames and just keep a good eye on any chips or scratches. The carbon fork on my ALU gravel bike transformed the ride so the benefits are real. The point about fake branded carbon frames is well made and I'm sure the engineering benefits are largely lost with more primitive constructions but expensive looking logos and paint jobs. I guess some riders just want "the look" !
 

KevinF

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I bought my Calfee Tetra in 2004. It has a 25-year warranty, so I guess I have another 10 years to go.

I probably have about 50,000 miles on it over the 15 years I've had it? There's definitely a lot of people who ride far more than I do. There's a few chips in the paint, but I've never had the feeling that it's getting "worn out".

This topic (i.e., carbon fiber fails catastrophically) comes up periodically on the various on-line cycling forums. The only time I think about it is when I read another article like the one linked in the first post. I feel the chances of a "bad crash" are much more likely due to pilot error than they are due to the frame itself failing.
 

Erik Timmerman

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Back to light, cheap or strong, pick two. That's why things like those chinese carbon rims freak me out. Clearly carbon can be strong. F-35 airframes can slam into carrier decks day in and day out, and it's not like nobody has ever broken steel, aluminum or titanic bikes before. I've broken several carbon frames, but never in a catastrophic way, always more of a "yep, that's cracked" kind of way.
 

mdf

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If you have never had a carbon windsurfing mast fold up while you are a mile offshore in eight foot waves, you haven't experienced the joy of carbon.
I had it happen in the middle of a lake. That's a big part of the reason I don't sail in the ocean.
 

Tom K.

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If you have never had a carbon windsurfing mast fold up while you are a mile offshore in eight foot waves, you haven't experienced the joy of carbon.

I had this happen with an aluminum mast a half mile offshore at Manzanita. Long paddle in, and lost a two day old sail.

Switched to carbon masts after that, and I've never broken one.

I don't think you can buy a windsurfing mast these days made out of anything BUT carbon fiber.
 

Tony Storaro

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've broken several carbon frames, but never in a catastrophic way, always more of a "yep, that's cracked" kind of way.

99,99% of the cases of broken frames look like that.
Real catastrophic failures are very rare.
BTW, speaking of rims, stick to disk brakes and you could use whatever make you want-be it Chinese, Taiwanese. US, or....yeah, German, in which case I envy you as the Meilensteins cost....no, better not even think how much the Meilensteins cost...

Rim brakes are different story and there attention needs to be paid and caution is advised.
Although brand name does not 100% guarantee they wont fail. This last summer a group of friends went to climb in the Alps and on the steep descents they managed to blow almost every brand imaginable- Roval, Easton, Zipp, Fulcrum and whatnot. So again-caution.
 
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mdf

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Switched to carbon masts after that, and I've never broken one.
In fairness, my son dropped the carbon mast against the edge of the dock getting away from shore. Probably didn't help.
Still, that hour slog into shore was an eye opener. (Since it was a lake, I didn't have to ditch gear for safety, but a broken 10 sq. meter sail is a HUGE sea anchor.)
I don't think you can buy a windsurfing mast these days made out of anything BUT carbon fiber.
Almost all are partly carbon. Just took a quick look, this page has mostly 80% carbon masts but a few 40, 90 and 100, and even one that is all epoxy (which I guess is a misnomer for fiberglass, since carbon fiber is embedded in epoxy too).
https://isthmussailboards.com/standard.html
The RDM masts seem to be mostly 60, 90, or 100% carbon.

The last mast I bought is 100% carbon but has a white layer on the outside for protection and slipperyness (and to make it pretty).
 

Tony Storaro

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The last mast I bought is 100% carbon but has a white layer on the outside for protection and slipperyness (and to make it pretty).

I wonder what do they mean by 100% carbon? No fibreglass in the structure?
 

mdf

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I wonder what do they mean by 100% carbon? No fibreglass in the structure?
Yes, I think so. Most mere mortals want the blend. I think the 100% is stronger per weight, maybe springier, but more fragile.
When you rig a windsurfer sail (especially a larger one) you put an immense amount of downhaul force on the bottom of the sail at the mast foot, which bends the mast and puts a 3-d airfoil shape into the sail. The downhaul is rigged with a line through a compound pulley (3 stages for me). After years of straining and hurting my feet, I gave in and bought a crank.

When my mast broke, it made a VERY loud noise.
 

Dakine

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Neil Pryde X9 100% carbon masts were famous for breaking when they first came out.
They went through two Chinese suppliers who couldn't make spec and ended up making good ones in Italy.
I went through five of them at $1200 a pop.
Windsurfing gear warranty coverage is nonexistant.
 

Rudi Riet

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Speaking of the counterfeit carbon market, Carlton Reid (currently of Forbes, formerly of BikeBiz) wrote a multi-part piece on the industry (and not just frames, but also helmets and clothing) in 2016. It's still relevant today and can be downloaded as a PDF:


Speaking of "cheap" Chinese carbon frames, for 12 years my primary road bike frame was a Pedal Force ZX3 made by ADK Composite Technology in Huizhou, China. They also manufacture frames for Fuji, Look, and a few other resellers (including Performance Bike and PlanetX). I paid a whopping $280 for the frame back in 2007 as part of a direct-from-brand group buy, and I built it up myself.

Since building the bike it's been ridden over 40,000 miles, and I've ridden it hard. I have crashed it and had it repaired by Brady Kappius' Broken Carbon in Boulder, CO. The repair is amazing to behold (I left it "nude" to show off the scar because... chicks dig scars? Kappius did a 17 layer layup of carbon fabric and resin, melding it into the existing frame. It's strong - possibly stronger than the original carbon surrounding the repair.

The clear coat on the frame is starting to peel a bit, but it's still structurally sound. I'll repaint it sometime soon using Spray.Bike DIY products. And I may replace the fork (an all-carbon Easton EC70), even though it's still in fine shape. It's may be harder to find a good replacement as straight 1 1/8" steerer tube forks are increasingly rare.

Every mechanic who has worked on the bike praised its frame quality. It still rides well - rode it yesterday.

That said, my primary whip these days is a 2019 Moots Vamoots DR. Titanium is quite the metal. The fork is all carbon, built by Factor for Moots.
 

Tom K.

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The RDM masts seem to be mostly 60, 90, or 100% carbon.

I live in a high wind bubble (at nearly 200 pounds, my biggest sail is a 4.4) but as far as I know, all masts are now RDM, and they are really hard to break.

Nolimitz are made right across the river from me, and have a great rep. I've got a pair of Fiberspars that also seem to last forever.

When my mast broke, it made a VERY loud noise.

That's for sure! I seem to break a carbon boom every 4 years or so, and it sounds like a gun firing right in front of my face. :geek:

As far as bikes go, I used to break aluminum mtb frames despairingly often. Modern carbon frames, not so much.
 

jt10000

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I would not be too concerned.
Exploding forks are not that common at all. Even if it does break (which, again is not very common) usually it is not a clean snap so you have time to react and stop.
The feeling is like all of a sudden you got a front suspension :):)
This.

That said, I recommend in particular inspecting the steerer tube from time to time, and checking it out very carefully if there is anything feeling "off" up front.
 

Tony Storaro

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I recommend in particular inspecting the steerer tube from time to time,

Looking down inside the tube with a torchlight is also a good idea (it won't help much but will make you look professional in the eyes of the beholders :):) , although of course best case scenario for someone who is really cautious and concerned and buys second hand carbon stuff-frames, forks etc is to have it ultrasound scanned.
This is however not readily available option for most cases and it is not cheap.

I for once never cared to do it.
 

DoryBreaux

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After riding a carbon Rip9 most of last summer then switching back to my aluminum Meta, I will never buy another al frame, if I can avoid it.
Carbon bars, cranks, stems etc? Absolutely not.
 

martyg

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If you really want to geek out on CF as it relates to bikes, check out Rukus Composite’s podcast. You can listen to actual composite engineers chat about the subject. If you need NDA conducted on a frame / fork, they can do that as well.

There are several other podcasts that deal with industrial and aerospace industries and CF.
 

Rudi Riet

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Carbon bars, cranks, stems etc? Absolutely not.

I don't have a problem with these parts being carbon as long as they are:

a. of top-notch build quality; and
b. haven't been crashed.

The former is fairly easy to tell if it's legitimately from a major carbon manufacturer. And even some of the no-name stuff is made in factories that make a lot of carbon parts. I have a no-name carbon post on my Moots and it's really well made and very strong (had a framebuilder look at it and he was duly impressed with the quality, but it can be hit-or-miss).

The latter is the bigger worry. If you use carbon handlebars, damage can be hidden by grips, bar tape, or control mounts. And when carbon bars fail, they tend to fail in a very binary way. Then again, so do aluminum bars, though they'll typically bend before they snap.

Carbon stems are typically out of harm's way in the grand scheme of things, and all but the most expensive ones use alloy for the contact points with handlebar and steering tube.

On cranks the liability is any inlaid metal part. I've known the aluminum or steel pedal thread inserts in carbon cranks (e.g. SRAM Red22) to come loose over time.

And that leads to cases where carbon is mated to metal. In the case of mating to steel or titanium, it's no big deal and tends to be a strong connection. With aluminum it's different, and said join points need to be checked regularly for delamination and oxidization, both of which can lead to joint failure.

So I'd steer clear, if possible, from things like carbon rear triangles that are epoxied to aluminum front triangles, or carbon bladed forks with aluminum steering tubes. I've seen failure (or pre-failure) on these a few too many times to be convinced it's a great solution.

And with any carbon part that gets clamped, it's absolutely necessary to use anti-slip paste and a torque wrench. The former will keep things from, well, slipping, as well as allow you to tighten bolts on the lower end of the recommended torque spectrum (read: less likely that you'll compromise carbon layering). And the torque wrench - well, that just makes sense, right? If you own a carbon frame or any carbon components that require bolts to be tightened, get one and treat it properly (e.g. wind it back to zero after every use).
 

Ken_R

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Yeh, don't ever watch that Australian guy who posts as Luescher Technik. You'll never be comfy around CF again.


I had that bike. Loved it. Solid bike frame.
 

Bill Talbot

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Yeh, don't ever watch that Australian guy who posts as Luescher Technik. You'll never be comfy around CF again.


Well I've never been comfortable around CF in the first place. While bombing some local hills at around the 50mph mark I always tease an engineer riding buddy about his CF just waiting to blow apart at times just like this! :geek:
 

Rudi Riet

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Well I've never been comfortable around CF in the first place. While bombing some local hills at around the 50mph mark I always tease an engineer riding buddy about his CF just waiting to blow apart at times just like this! :geek:

So are you comfortable skiing on any ski with laminate or monocoque construction? It's not markedly different, and alpine skis take a lot more impact abuse than a bicycle frame or components.

CF is incredibly strong if well designed and soundly constructed. Most CF products have a lot of redundancy built into them due to layering. That said, there's a trade-off: the lighter the CF item (in comparison to CF items of similar scale/size), the less resistant it is to traumatic impact. That's why more "commodity" CF bike frames are heavier: more sheets of heavier CF fabric in the layup. The commodity frames and components tend to not have rider weight limits and tend to carry longer warranty terms. The more high-performance, lightweight, and expensive CF frames and components almost always have either weight limits or more specialized function, and the warranty terms tend to be a lot shorter. Either that or they use more expensive CF implementations (e.g. true graphene) that cost a lot more to source and require more care in the layup.

It's the old Venn diagram: you have CHEAP, DURABLE, and LIGHTWEIGHT. You can only ever pick two.

And that applies to any frame or component material. Cheaper aluminum frames use heavier alloys, and aluminum frames aren't as durable in the long term due to the alloy's relatively limited fatigue strength. Steel frames are ultra durable, but the more lightweight implementations (e.g. Reynolds 953 or True Temper OX) are more expensive and more challenging to weld properly. Titanium is more expensive but has amazing fatigue strength combined with lower density than steel - but you pay the price for it, especially in the higher quality tubes used by the more bespoke manufacturers.
 

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