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Jerez

Skiing the powder
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Posts
2,993
Location
New Mexico
I would totally welcome a model like in Europe. Most instructors have no idea how to promote themselves or build their brand. Half are total burn-outs who show up, draw their breathe, and draw their paycheck.
This is because too many places do not treat instructors as professionals. As long as they count on perks to supply them with people who are in it for the pass and don't care about the teaching, everyone suffers. PSIA would better serve its members if it was much more of an advocacy organization IMHO than a certification organization.

In my many years of skiing and working in an adaptive program, I have known and learned from many amazing dedicated professionals who love their work and take the art of teaching seriously. I have also seen many g-d awful disasters like those you mention...to the point of being dangerous liabilities to even major resorts. Unfortunately, most of those people are assigned to the new skiers or lower end kid classes which drives people away from the sport. And the admin too often just don't care.
 

martyg

Making fresh tracks
Industry Insider
Joined
Nov 24, 2017
Posts
2,216
I will be grateful to my first mountain as that's where I learned to ski and ultimately became an instructor. However, I was worked to the bone, had to show up for every lineup, all day long and often without taking a lunch. I'm grateful because I got some great training there and learned a lot. However, I was kept ridiculously busy plus thrown into the all day kids program a little too often. I never saw my SO let alone got to ski with him. The kicker was when this happened on a powder day and I was in there all day. That was almost the nail that broke the camels back as they say. The final straw was when I got yelled at for taking a lunch. At this point I felt the perks were not greater than my 'suffering'. I transitioned to Vermont as we started to spend more time there. My employment now is extremely civilized and nothing like my other mountain. I couldn't be happier.

What I think is wrong is how our volunteer patrol at Bromley gets less of a food discount than I do all while not getting paid at all. Their job is way more important than mine and they have more responsibility to boot. I don't get it.

I think that being an instructor, for a time, is great. If you want to improve your skiing, if you want a deep understanding of the mechanics of skiing, if you want to hone your craft, there is nothing like enlisting at a school with a great training program.

I am still all about going to PSIA clinics, National Academy, etc. I ski maybe 100+ days per year, and still devote maybe 10 days per year to becoming a better skier / instructor.

The greatest gift of instructing for me (both ski and kayak, but I am more coach in kayak):

1. Modeling perfect technique, bell-to-bell, made me a much more efficient skier / paddler.

2. Staying in touch with those students that you vibe with. Mentoring them on their journey. Seeing the stoke in their eyes. Sharing their excitement.
 

HDSkiing

You’re Sliding On-Snow; Don’t Over-Think it!
Skier
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Posts
319
Location
The Rocky Mountains
I mentioned in another thread how working as a Ski Instructor is an ”Apprentice type” of position. If a prospective ski school employee shows up to fill a position who has no experience and no certification, regardless of how ”Rad” a skier they may be they are of limited use to me. I still need to invest in a clinician to spend 40 hours with them, give or take, all while said newbie is also being paid then they move onto shadowing while we are paying them then at some point we cut them loose with Never-Evers. Meanwhile they get a pass, along with their family (depending on number of commitment days), discounts, locker room privileges and all kinds of training. It takes some time to get a return on that investment with someone who is only going to do Never-Ever lessons. Even so we still pay more than minimum wage.

Experienced instructors with some certs do considerably better, for example getting bumped to a private lesson ups your par rate, whatever it may be by at least $10 an hour up to an additional $22 per hour, if you took a 5 person private for example as pay for private lessons increases with the size of the class (yes it’s a group but a private one i.e. family, group of friends etc). Then there are the tips, particularly for privates which average around $200/day during holidays and busy weekends.

So yeah, it’s piecemeal work and the wages are low at entry, but for experienced, certified staff the pay, benefits and tips increase over time. You also have the ability to create your own clientele that come back again and again which raises your odds of getting even more “walk up privates.”

No one said it would be easy, and it’s still a seasonal job, but for those that invest in themselves and build up a business the pay is far from a starvation wage, at least that has been my experience.
 

HardDaysNight

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Posts
1,343
Location
Park City, UT
^^^I can’t imagine it would take long to recoup your “investment” given that a 6 person group lesson nets the resort $1320 per day (at least at PCMR) of which the hapless instructor receives ~$75 for his 6 hour day. Pretty decent margin there. Given that I don’t teach recreational skiers, and wouldn’t do so for ten times the pay, I find it hard to be overly sympathetic to the instructors’ plight. Many, maybe most, really have no business instructing in the first place. Many, a seemingly endless supply, are intermediate skiers themselves with very little training who instruct as a hobby and don’t care much about the compensation. These, of course, destroy ski instruction as a serious career for those who are real professionals. That’s the price that’s being paid for the avarice of the resort owners.
 

Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Posts
1,366
Location
Truckee
Many, maybe most, really have no business instructing in the first place.
Wouldn't it be more enlightening to say that the resorts have no business employing them in the first place? The resorts are in the position to define the product they're going to offer. The resorts ruin it for the highly qualified instructors by deciding to offer a product of questionable quality to a largely unsuspecting public, exploiting their local monopolies and reaping huge margins. Don't blame the situation on the masses of individuals who find instruction fulfilling and are willing to accept low pay. If the resorts raised their standards, market forces would raise the compensation necessary to attract well qualified instructors--to motivate more candidates to invest the considerable effort and expense needed to become qualified.

How many would invest in med school if physicians were paid $13 per hour?
 

HardDaysNight

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Posts
1,343
Location
Park City, UT
Wouldn't it be more enlightening to say that the resorts have no business employing them in the first place? The resorts are in the position to define the product they're going to offer. The resorts ruin it for the highly qualified instructors by deciding to offer a product of questionable quality to a largely unsuspecting public, exploiting their local monopolies and reaping huge margins. Don't blame the situation on the masses of individuals who find instruction fulfilling and are willing to accept low pay. If the resorts raised their standards, market forces would raise the compensation necessary to attract well qualified instructors--to motivate more candidates to invest the considerable effort and expense needed to become qualified.

How many would invest in med school if physicians were paid $13 per hour?
Couldn’t agree more. You expressed the point better than I did!
 

Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
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Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Posts
1,366
Location
Truckee
Further, imagine that when you show up expecting to be seen by a physician the hospital fobs you off with the floor sweeper for the same price without telling you that he has no real qualifications at all.
We might be moving in that direction, but that's another discussion!
 

Nancy Hummel

Ski more, talk less.
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Jan 10, 2016
Posts
1,036
Location
Snowmass
I have worked with many part time instructors who are educated, decent skiers and decent teachers. Many of them have the time to invest in their skiing. Since many of them were successful in many different fields, they take pride in their skiing and teaching and interact with guests very professionally.
They do not need the money so they are free to do a good lesson without pressuring students to return because they
need to work.

I choose to teach skiing. I have a ton of fun. I also take it very seriously. I have worked hard to improve my skiing. I may have a way to go on my skiing but I am a solid, professional educator and I do my best to give people their money’s worth. Many of my part time colleagues are similar. I do not ever want to take work from a full time person and will not do it. There are many days at Snowmass where they use every instructor who shows up so I am not taking work from anyone.
 
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Ski&ride

Out on the slopes
Pass Pulled
Joined
Mar 15, 2018
Posts
1,633
When I was a terminal intermediate skier, I had taken many useless lessons by instructors who didn’t know what to do about me, or others like me. They may even ski better than me. But they don’t know how to teach.

I could have easily became an instructor even then. To teach never-evers, or even lower intermediates. Though my life and other matters made sure that didn’t happen.

By the time I took my first instructor spot, I was a much better skier. But that didn’t make much difference teaching never-ever or beginners.

As a rookie instructor, my biggest weakness was my lack of MA experience. My students struggled while I tried to figure out how to help them! By the time I accumulated some experience and can help my students more effectively, I was close to burned out by the disrespect and poor working conditions.

I no longer teach for ski schools for pay or for the pass. But when friends have kids or beginner friends who need to get started, I would offer tips here and there, which many found helpful. Sometimes I get lunch. Or other forms of “thank you” which are no less valuable (monetary value) than the peanuts I got from the last ski school I worked for.
 

HDSkiing

You’re Sliding On-Snow; Don’t Over-Think it!
Skier
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Posts
319
Location
The Rocky Mountains
Poor working condition? Peanuts? Instructors who don’t know how to instruct? Wow, I dunno where many of you have worked, but from many of the comments I feel fortunate to have not been a part of those schools/resorts.

My experiences are more in line with @Nancy Hummel In that ski instructing is a fun job that most of the people I have worked with feel passionate about. Most do not need the money but sure it helps. But almost nobody that I know does it for the money, including me. I work full time in a supervisory role, hiring staff, training them and making day to day assignments And for the 5- 6 months I work I do make a decent salary, many of the staff, because of tips do considerably better.

On a nearly daily basis I find work for everybody that wants it, many would rather go free ski, clinic or take an assignment with Patrol, Safety, or in the Park that day. Honestly we do not have enough staff as it is, so the work is there if you’re flexible. I‘m clear with everyone I hire what they can expect in terms of pay, compensation and benefits. Most are more interested in bettering their skiing, passes, locker room use, and maybe most importantly finding new friends to ski with—rather than the ”peanuts.” In fact the ones who care the least about that seem to make the most, because their passion shines through and the guests love them for it.

As far as competence, we work hard to make sure that every Instructor has the tools to provide a meaningful lesson. That starts with their ”people skills.” I’ll take an intermediate skier any day that can relate to the guests vs that level 8-9 skier who can’t. in a few seasons they will be a 8/9 themselves and they will be a much better instructor as a result.

Our ski school is a happy place where I look forward to being everyday and am met by smiles and happiness, AND egos are left down the mountain, if that’s not you, you need not apply...
 
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surfsnowgirl

Instructor
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2016
Posts
5,769
Location
Magic Mountain, Vermont
I'm incredibly happy instructing at Bromley and Magic in southern vermont. They treat us well and I feel like a person and not just a number. Bromley for one gives us excellent training and that's partly what keeps me coming back every year. We have a great group of instructors at both mountains and I feel very lucky. If someone wants to work then there's always someone to yield to that person. One of our instructors is up there in age and we always yield to him if he wants to take a lesson because he needs the wage more than we do. Magic even let me do my shift in the afternoon one day so that I can ski powder all morning. I don't think I would have appreciated where I am now if I hadn't paid my dues a bit for the first couple years. I don't think I would want to instruct full time because it's very tiring, rewarding but tiring.... I like my half day schedules as it provides the perfect balance of teaching, free skiing and all the perks are lovely. I have to do more days because I only do half days but my schedule is pretty set and I like that. I teach in the am, meet my SO for lunch at 11:45 and then ski after that. I am new to Magic's team this year and I'm busy working at both mountains and I never have a day off but I love it. I'm tempted to give up Bromley but that training.................................
 

martyg

Making fresh tracks
Industry Insider
Joined
Nov 24, 2017
Posts
2,216
Poor working condition? Peanuts? Instructors who don’t know how to instruct? Wow, I dunno where many of you have worked, but from many of the comments I feel fortunate to have not been a part of those schools/resorts.

My experiences are more in line with @Nancy Hummel In that ski instructing is a fun job that most of the people I have worked with feel passionate about. Most do not need the money but sure it helps. But almost nobody that I know does it for the money, including me. I work full time in a supervisory role, hiring staff, training them and making day to day assignments And for the 5- 6 months I work I do make a decent salary, many of the staff, because of tips do considerably better.

On a nearly daily basis I find work for everybody that wants it, many would rather go free ski, clinic or take an assignment with Patrol, Safety, or in the Park that day. Honestly we do not have enough staff as it is, so the work is there if you’re flexible. I‘m clear with everyone I hire what they can expect in terms of pay, compensation and benefits. Most are more interested in bettering their skiing, passes, locker room use, and maybe most importantly finding new friends to ski with—rather than the ”peanuts.” In fact the ones who care the least about that seem to make the most, because their passion shines through and the guests love them for it.

As far as competence, we work hard to make sure that every Instructor has the tools to provide a meaningful lesson. That starts with their ”people skills.” I’ll take an intermediate skier any day that can relate to the guests vs that level 8-9 skier who can’t. in a few seasons they will be a 8/9 themselves and they will be a much better instructor as a result.

Our ski school is a happy place where I look forward to being everyday and am met by smiles and happiness, if that’s not you, you need not apply..

Tell me more. Feel free to PM me. I'd love a ski school that felt like home.

Angel Fire? Taos? Used to fly over those often when stationed at Kirkland.

Thanks so much.
 
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Steve

SkiMangoJazz
Pass Pulled
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,338
Where I teach we are treated well and paid pretty well too, although only for teaching hours and for a limited number of training hours.

I'm up to $16.50/hr and if teaching a requested private get ½ of the lesson cost, so that's good money. $47.50 for an hours lesson, plus tip.

Benefits are good as well. I only teach weekends, and at the end of a season make about $1,500 including tips. Yeah, I'm not doing it for the money per se, but that money pays for my other season passes and for much of the equipment I buy at Pro Deals as a PSIA member.

Works well for me, but the reason I do it is because I love to share and to teach. Also teaching has made me a much better skier. Skiing slowly behind or in front of a student requires high level skills (speed control done smoothly without excessive braking.)
 

HDSkiing

You’re Sliding On-Snow; Don’t Over-Think it!
Skier
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Posts
319
Location
The Rocky Mountains
Tell me more. Feel free to PM me. I'd love a ski school that felt like home.

Angel Fire? Taos? Used to fly over those often when stationed at Kirkland.

Thanks so much.
Sent you a PM.

Angel Fire has a great school, they take care of their instructors with free meals etc. and their Director is awesome. Taos, since they’ve gone corporate I’m not so sure about, we have a few former Taos Instructors who do really well here at Ski Santa Fe with lots of repeat clientele.

Kirtland? One of our Instructors is a Heli-Intructor Pilot....You’d fit right in;)
 

Pasha

i hiked the ridge... twice...
Skier
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Posts
843
Location
New Mexico
Poor working condition? Peanuts? Instructors who don’t know how to instruct? Wow, I dunno where many of you have worked, but from many of the comments I feel fortunate to have not been a part of those schools/resorts.

My experiences are more in line with @Nancy Hummel In that ski instructing is a fun job that most of the people I have worked with feel passionate about. Most do not need the money but sure it helps. But almost nobody that I know does it for the money, including me. I work full time in a supervisory role, hiring staff, training them and making day to day assignments And for the 5- 6 months I work I do make a decent salary, many of the staff, because of tips do considerably better.

On a nearly daily basis I find work for everybody that wants it, many would rather go free ski, clinic or take an assignment with Patrol, Safety, or in the Park that day. Honestly we do not have enough staff as it is, so the work is there if you’re flexible. I‘m clear with everyone I hire what they can expect in terms of pay, compensation and benefits. Most are more interested in bettering their skiing, passes, locker room use, and maybe most importantly finding new friends to ski with—rather than the ”peanuts.” In fact the ones who care the least about that seem to make the most, because their passion shines through and the guests love them for it.

As far as competence, we work hard to make sure that every Instructor has the tools to provide a meaningful lesson. That starts with their ”people skills.” I’ll take an intermediate skier any day that can relate to the guests vs that level 8-9 skier who can’t. in a few seasons they will be a 8/9 themselves and they will be a much better instructor as a result.

Our ski school is a happy place where I look forward to being everyday and am met by smiles and happiness, AND egos are left down the mountain, if that’s not you, you need not apply...


are you talking about Santa Fe? I need some clinics/lessons! *as soon as my calf heals*
 

HDSkiing

You’re Sliding On-Snow; Don’t Over-Think it!
Skier
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Posts
319
Location
The Rocky Mountains
are you talking about Santa Fe? I need some clinics/lessons! *as soon as my calf heals*
Yup, snowing like crazy right now too...Bummer about the calf, hope it heels quickly :)

come visit, we’ll get you back on track:beercheer:
 

SkiSchoolPros

Impact Ecosystem- ie.Money with Meaning
Skier
Joined
Dec 20, 2015
Posts
207
Location
Colorado
I'm a CO instructor who passed the CA bar exam years ago and have been looking into this issue recently. I agree with much of what @Nancy Hummel and others have said. While I don't instruct "for the $", I want to be treated fairly and would rather be part of the solution for professional instructors who want to make a living at their trade rather than be a cog in the wheel of an employer who only cares about short term stock price and profits.

The FSLA requires non exempt employees to be paid for all the hours they work (including required line ups), but employers in many industries do not follow this.





While unions could help some, I also put a lot of the blame for the huge discrepancy between big resort lesson prices and instructor pay with the United States Forest Services adoption of the "regulated monopoly" model which according to USFS employee research has been long on monopoly and short on regulation.

The USFS has a slogan "Its All Yours" which they were promoting at a local resort recently to make people aware that most Western ski resort land is publicly owned. When I mentioned that I preferred the European model of allowing multiple restaurant owners, ski schools and even independent certified instructors at most resorts, the USFS employee at their booth said that "competition is always a good thing." She didn't know what to say when I pointed out that giving ONE "non-exclusive" permit to the resort operator promotes a local monopoly, not free market competition.

This is not a new issue
(check the interesting comments as well as the video)
but I suspect that consolidation in the ski industry is making it worse.
 

Wasatchman

over the hill
Skier
Joined
Nov 9, 2017
Posts
2,324
Location
Wasatch and NZ
I have heard there is a real lack of experienced teachers at Utah resorts, especially this year (and mountain ops in general as well).

Great economy and now with cheap multi-passes, the free lift pass is no longer that big of a perk.

Some places do a much better job than others as far as training perks, etc. Many resorts do remarkably little (especially for part time staff) other than a free pass.
 

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