Mid-Atlantic Camelback "Improvements" (?)

[kitchener]

For my fellow Poconos skiers, I wonder if you've noticed the touted improvements Camelback has made in the off-season. Some certainly are (new, additional modern-tech snow guns, the restaurant re-opening at the top, the old Glen Lodge at the mid-mountain bottom is now an Italian restaurant). I'm not a snow gun aficionado so I'll take their word for it on the snow guns.

The "improvement" that really gives me pause though is their conversion of the old Pharoah trail (skier's left of Cliffhanger) into a top-to-bottom terrain park, and turning the "old" mid-mountain terrain park that was serviced by the Glen lift into newly-named green trails, Upper Moore's Ramble, Lower Moore's Ramble (named for the original managing partner I assume), Oak Grove, and Turkey Trot. What's more, they've whacked a small, new trail out (called Scarab) which will now connect Marc Antony to Raceway, the primary purpose of which is to provide skiers with a method of skiing from the top of the Sullivan high speed quad (the high speed quad at the main lodge) to the base of the Stevenson high speed quad on the other side of the mountain.

It all sounds great except... For anyone who's actively skied Camelback in the last couple years since they opened that new hotel at the base of the Stevenson high speed quad, you'll recall by noontime on a weekend that lift is mobbed and in effect nullifies any desire to ski Nile Mile or Cliffhanger, two fine trails. NOW all the terrain park riders will be forced to the Stevenson lift as well, which might effectively kill not only their fun, but any possibility of skiers having any kind of decent day skiing off Stevenson, as well. I just don't get it. From a business point-of-view, it might help sell a lot of curious lift tickets initially, but if it's a miserable experience, repeat business might not be a given.

I asked Camelback about it on Facebook. They replied:


Camelback Mountain HI Aaron - The skier traffic should shift with the new terrain. With the opening of the new terrain park we also opened up 15 acres of new free skiing terrain accessible from multiple lifts spreading the crowd from one lifts to ALL lifts. This will shorten the lines everywhere We will monitor as the season goes and make adjustments as needed!



I hope this means they'll open the mid-mountain slower lifts (Marc Antony, Cleopatra) more than they historically do.

Here's the new trail map: https://www.skicamelback.com/plan-your-trip/trail-map-conditions/

 

[Large Squirrel]

It all sounds great except... For anyone who's actively skied Camelback in the last couple years since they opened that new hotel at the base of the Stevenson high speed quad, you'll recall by noontime on a weekend that lift is mobbed....

^^ this is why we haven't been to CB in a long time.

hopefully they will run some of those lifts slower to ease congestion on the trails. btw, a top-to-bottom park seems like a waste of real estate to me, but then again I don't prefer to ski park, lol!

 

[kitchener]

I've usually found Sundays to be not too, too bad, albeit these last couple years the Stevenson side's pretty bad until late noon. We're coming up from northern Delaware, so unless its MLK or Presidents Day, we'll peel off at Camelback instead of headed up to Elk. I've found Blue Mountain to be consistently a lot worse than Camelback even on a Sunday, no doubt because it's the first "larger" ski hill north of Philadelphia, and siphons off more of the great, unwashed masses lol. In the end, I'd rather ski than not ski, so, I go. But unless they do a better job of opening the older mid-mountain lifts (Raceway, Marc Antony, Cleopatra), piling the terrain park on top of Stevenson doesn't portend well. I must not be getting what they mean when they said, "The skier traffic should shift with the new terrain" -- it'll shift all right, all to the Stevenson lift. And I LIKE Nile and Cliffhanger. Grumbly mumbly.

Have to hope for the best.

 

[Sibhusky]

The terrain parks were all over on the other side of the mountain when I used to ski there, so returning Turkey Trot and Moore's Ramble is to me a restoration.

 

[kitchener]

Oh, how about that! Here I thought those were "new" names. I've skied there a long time but I probably just forgot. As icy as Pharoah can get, I can't imagine how hairy some of those obstacles might be, but...

I'm not a terrain-park guy either, but my two sons, now 18 and 13, spend 70% of their time there.

 

[Large Squirrel]

We're coming up from northern Delaware, so unless its MLK or Presidents Day, we'll peel off at Camelback instead of headed up to Elk...

you forgot about montage at least 30 min closer to you, better expert terrain (than elk), better lodge (than elk), better snowmaking (than elk), better parking (than elk)....but i digress.

fwiw, i used to ski alot at CB during highschool and i was also confused alterations they had done on the eastern side of the hill. the last time we have been at CB was for a buckman's demo day during the week.

 

[Large Squirrel]

The terrain parks were all over on the other side of the mountain when I used to ski there, so returning Turkey Trot and Moore's Ramble is to me a restoration.

now this is how i remember CB!

 

[kitchener]

you forgot about montage at least 30 min closer to you, better expert terrain (than elk), better lodge (than elk), better snowmaking (than elk), better parking (than elk)....but i digress..

You know, you're right. We should check it out this season, especially with these crowded tidings from CBK. Funny, I used to say the coldest skiing I've ever done was up at Jay Peak in the beginning of January one year. That was until a wicked cold spell a couple years ago -- it was so cold CBK wouldn't open, but we were already up there at a buddy's cabin, so we went to Montage instead. We got off the lift and as soon as we turned into the wind, my younger son started crying. But, in an exercise of not exposing ANY skin, we made a day of it and can say we did. Once my goggles crystallized closed and I couldn't see anymore, that's when we (I) called it.

 

[4aprice]

Kitchener: Thanks for the post and the information you have provided. I knew of the new trail and terrain park but not too much of the details.

Long time pass holder here and can empathize with what you say.

Making Pharoah a t2b terrain park is an interesting twist. I think they are feeling the pressure from Blue with their Sidewinder Park. I have heard it stated by many "Park" skiers that the old park was just not sufficient and I tend to believe it. It is a demographic of skier that is important to them and important to the resort and the type of customer they want to attract. From what I understand the Hotel is very successful and selling out practically every weekend so I'm sure the changes were made with that in mind. How Pharoah will work as a terrain Park trail is going to be interesting. Its kind of narrow at the top and as you mentioned can get rather icy at times. I have always understood that is mostly because of ground water that seeps through the rocks below the snow. I guess they feel that if they throw enough snow on top of it it will suffice. To Sibhuskey the parks and features over on the west side (Laurel Glade) have been gone for years along with the old 1/4 pipe and the old 1/2 pipe of Oak Grove.

As far as how the changes will affect how the mountain skis, that could be interesting too. I'm not totally devastated at the loss of Pharoah/Bactrain as a route down the mountain. Pharoah had its moments (or days I guess) where it was fun but Bactrain was never a favorite of mine so no tears there. I agree that Stevenson quad will probably become busier but I'm not sure it will have too much effect on how we ski the mountain. We generally head over there pretty early to try and get cord on Nile Mile and hit "Cliffy" a couple of times but try to get out of there by 10 or 10:30. Stevenson becomes a dead end after that as the crowds come into play later in the morning.

Where I totally agree with you is with the operation of the mid-mountain lifts Marc Anthony and Cleopatra triple. They need to stop with late openings and at least get Anthony up and running first thing. The middle of the mountain is the most underused part. We enjoy t2b runs on Cleopatra and Marc Anthony but one shouldn't have to straight line it down Home Again to skate over to Sullivan or bomb down lowers sections of MA and Cleo to get over to Stevenson to make it back up to the summit. Of course there are other changes I would like to see as well. If it were up to me (and here of course I'm playing with other peoples money) I would rip out the current Marc Anthony lift, put in a HSQ from Sun Bowl lodge to the current top of MA double, reconfigure the bottoms of Cleo, Marc Anthony and Turkey Trot and make a cut through from Big Pocono to Lower Cleo (BTW this would be my desired mogul trail down mountain Big Poke to L Cleo) and most importantly eliminate the worst trail on the mountain Honeymoon lane. This would open up the underused middle of the mountain. Force people to go down Home Again to cross sides.

These are just some of my thoughts about my home bump. Certainly would love to meet up, make some turns with any Pug Skiers who come up and show you the mountain I know.

PS The guns are on again

 

[Philpug]

LOL, this is how I remember Camelback...

 

[Willyum215]

Interesting to see how this plays out. Never will be a fan of taking away advanced terrain in favor of a TP, but Pharoh was always kind of sketchy anyhow (like @4aprice said). Scarab seems pretty unnecessary. To call that a new trail is a stretch for sure.

Agreed that they have to utilize Marc Antony and Cleo lifts more. An upgrade to one- or both- would be huge. I bet it happens in the next year or two.

I only tend to get to C-Back 1 or 2 times a season at this point, just to keep mixing it up between NEPA spots.

If I was able to ski mid-week I'd likely hit it more. It has a lot of nostalgic value for me, as I know it does for many others on here.

 

[kitchener]

...I have heard it stated by many "Park" skiers that the old park was just not sufficient and I tend to believe it. It is a demographic of skier that is important to them and important to the resort and the type of customer they want to attract.

Where I totally agree with you is with the operation of the mid-mountain lifts Marc Anthony and Cleopatra triple. They need to stop with late openings and at least get Anthony up and running first thing. The middle of the mountain is the most underused part. We enjoy t2b runs on Cleopatra and Marc Anthony but one shouldn't have to straight line it down Home Again to skate over to Sullivan or bomb down lowers sections of MA and Cleo to get over to Stevenson to make it back up to the summit. Of course there are other changes I would like to see as well. If it were up to me (and here of course I'm playing with other peoples money) I would rip out the current Marc Anthony lift, put in a HSQ from Sun Bowl lodge to the current top of MA double...

...Certainly would love to meet up, make some turns with any Pug Skiers who come up and show you the mountain I know.

Great comments. You’re spot-on about the presence of a good park with regards to the younger demographic. When we head out West, “how are the terrain parks?’ is the first question I get when we’re trying a new mountain. And as I mentioned earlier, my sons and their cousins and their posse of friends spend at least 70% of their time there (at Camelback). They’ll be psyched to hear CBK has overhauled the park experience. But as I touched on, if that means they’re stuck living in those mobs at the base of Stevenson, which look to only be made much, much larger by forcing all the terrain park traffic there, it may let the air out of their enthusiasm for Camelback entirely.

But, like you, it is our home mountain and if they buck ($) up and keep the slower mid-mountain lifts open, hopefully it’ll help to some degree. I imagine they have to keep the Raceway lift open more than they did last season, in order to try and do something about the shift of skier/rider traffic to the Stevenson side.

I hadn’t thought about it before with regards to a high-speed quad replacing the Marc Antony chair. It makes total sense and with a third HSQ, it would really separate them from their competition. In a way, I’d almost hate to see the slower chair go, though. When open, it’s always been our little “secret” — the hoi polloi flock to the HSQs and while it’s a slower ride, we’ve always been able to hop right on and start heading to the top of the mountain, while everyone else is still standing in line. In the spending other people’s money department, I’d like to see them open the terrain that’s skiers right of Nile (which they own). It creeps into where the original late-1950s Big Pocono ski hill was (who’s owners partnered with the first CBK owners to create CBK). As I understand it, it gets icy steep there and thus a safety concern for the yahoos, but to borrow one of your thoughts, perhaps modern, powerful snowguns can help. Of course, this notion would do nothing to alleviate the Stevenson mobs with the advent of the new hotel at its base.

We’re Sunday regulars. My cousin Wayne and I, and some slice of our passel of kids (my oldest is a WVU freshman so it’ll be “minus one” for the first time in years this season — he’ll be at Canaan Valley representing Cameoback’s best!). Love to meet up with you and any other Pugskiers on any given Sunday. PM me and we can exchange cells and coordinate impromptu when we all find ourselves up there on a Sunday. (Lurkers, too!)

Aaron

 

[Philpug]

I don't start this post with ...When I was a boy....but...I will get into the background later. I understand now Camelback has to run a four season resort and I image that skiing is no longer the most profitable considering the costs of operation. With that said Camelback has to focus on volume. I was say this focus is nothing new, we started seeing it decades ago when they cut the trees out of The Hump, took the turns out of The Asp and straightened Margies Delight at the bottom. The progression also took out many of the cross trails where accidents could happen..and did..and the trails turned into alleys. Camelback is not the ski area we knew...but the ski resort that is the trend in the industry.

 

[kitchener]

And as the “end user” it’s easy for us to forget, with no buck$, no Buck Rogers. The current Timberline discussion is a cautionary tale in how one has to go hand-in-hand with the other. It’s finding that balance that I’m happy to man the barricades for!

 

[4aprice]

I hadn’t thought about it before with regards to a high-speed quad replacing the Marc Antony chair. It makes total sense and with a third HSQ, it would really separate them from their competition. In a way, I’d almost hate to see the slower chair go, though. When open, it’s always been our little “secret” — the hoi polloi flock to the HSQs and while it’s a slower ride, we’ve always been able to hop right on and start heading to the top of the mountain, while everyone else is still standing in line. In the spending other people’s money department, I’d like to see them open the terrain that’s skiers right of Nile (which they own). It creeps into where the original late-1950s Big Pocono ski hill was (who’s owners partnered with the first CBK owners to create CBK). As I understand it, it gets icy steep there and thus a safety concern for the yahoos, but to borrow one of your thoughts, perhaps modern, powerful snowguns can help. Of course, this notion would do nothing to alleviate the Stevenson mobs with the advent of the new hotel at its base.


Aaron

Expansion to the east would be interesting and it would be awesome if they could incorporate the old Big Pocono Ski hill into it. A fixed grip quad would be preferable over there as the Stevenson is currently the most exposed lift and subject to wind closures as it is now. Pulling any skiing down towards the brook (adjacent to the tubing hill) would probably add a 100 - 150 feet of vert and get them close to that magic 1000 ft vertical mark that many people are hung up on. I don't go into the woods at Camelback (except some very short sections) but I do know people who have been over and skied the old runs.

As far as the HSQ in the middle section, I said remove Marc Anthony double, not the Cleopatra Triple. As Willyum215 said, there is some nostalga involved for many of us at Camelback and that would be mine. I first skied there back about 1970. Those were the days even before the map that Philpug posted. There was no Baily or Glen or Raceway lifts. Sunbowl was a T-bar with no lodge at the bottom. Sullivan was an old Hall double chair with a midstation, (and broken poles from negligent riders abounded just beyond it). In those days the workhorse of the mountain was the Triple and its "array" of towers at the top, and it will always be a sentimental favorite of mine even as it has become the least used lift on the mountain (I think fixed grip back up is needed as well)

 

[Willyum215]

A wee bit off track, and I know this was brought up in another old thread in the forum, but for NEPA ski history buffs and for those that feel the nostalgia of the area, this book is a really interesting read:
"Camelback: The Downs and Ups of A Banana Belt Ski Area"

https://www.amazon.com/Camelback-Downs-Banana-Belt-Area/dp/B0006ES9H6

 

[Willyum215]

@4aprice I have to admit, I was at work when I first read your post so didn't really take it all in. Your ideas would be a great improvement. Although not very challenging per se (besides dodging people on Honeymoon), I do love a top to bottom cruise down the middle of the mountain and then hopping on to the MA and just soaking it all in. To put in a HSQ from the Sunbowl area and doing a "little" reconfiguration of the trails in the middle would be amazing- as long as more experienced skiers don't get tangled up with the beginners in the Sunbowl.

 

[kitchener]

A wee bit off track, and I know this was brought up in another old thread in the forum, but for NEPA ski history buffs and for those that feel the nostalgia of the area, this book is a really interesting read:
"Camelback: The Downs and Ups of A Banana Belt Ski Area"

Great read. I have it.

 

[Sibhusky]

Bought it before it was remaindered. Knew and skied with some of the folks in the pictures. I still have it. Very good book. I wish there was anything equivalent for here. (I've got them all, they are nowhere as good as the Camelback one.)

 

[Willyum215]

LOL, this is how I remember Camelback...

@Philpug would you happen to know what year this is from?