Buying boots online. Yes or no?

[cem]

buy a boot in store from us and you pay a consult/ assessment charge of £50-£75 depending on which fitter you see + footbeds + boots, that includes all boot mods for 2 years, bring the boot to us that you bought elsewhere and the cost is a flat £100 set up + footbeds (if the boot is the correct size) then £40 per 1/2 hour for any mods after that initial visit. the trouble is most of the time as soon as you touch it you own it, and i really don't like owning other peoples problems as while i waste my time trying to polish a turd i could be servicing another customer who wants to make their purchase from us

 

[markojp]

Well said Slim. I see no reason not to buy a pair of boots online and pay to have someone heat mold them, cuff align them, put in or take out heel lifts, and if necessary do canting work. If they are a skilled craftsperson they will gladly take the work and do it well, whether they sold you the boot or not.

That said if you buy the boot from them you'll get at the least a break, and if they throw in a ton of work for free then they're probably overcharging for the boot, so you're still paying for it.

We follow standard industry practice and sell at MAP pricing for current season boots. We do the work as part of the deal, but some parts (cantology shims, some lifters, boot sole planing or lug routing) we charge extra for. Footbeds will be anywhere between 50 and 170 dollars. We install boot heaters purchased on site gratis, and mold liners purchased from us at no charge as well. Now here's the kicker for you. We have a fit guarantee as well. If the boot you purchased just doesn't work, we'll take it back, credit you the price, and start over. This is why it's a better deal than online. If you're a local instructor, chances are I can probably figure out how to take a few laps with you (or talk to your trainer, look at some video of your skiing) and follow up on alignment issues. Bonus, no?

 

[Steve]

Of course it's a bonus and well worth it. Then again buying boots for 50% off MAP if you know what you want is worth considering.

And the posts about buying too big a boot, or you trying to polish a turd assumes that the person buying online doesn't know what they need. I've been skiing long enough that I know what size I need, I have custom liners, I know the brand that tends to fit my feet, and I know what last works for me.

Don't get me wrong I respect the hell out of boot fitters, and to to the best I can when I need to.

 

[Slim]

To clarify. I am not talking about the actual price the bootfitter is getting paid. Also not talking about whether buying the boot from a shop with a bootfitter is a better deal than online.
What I am talking about is that the current pricing structure makes it unclear for the customer to know what they are paying, and what they are getting for that, and that ambiguity makes it harder for many to decide if there is value in that for them.

 

[Slim]

I like your model of bike fitting service.
But given the fact that skiers of all levels of experience buy boots, and they go to boot sellers and boot fitters who also are working at all levels of experience, is there any way to fix that part: “know what value they are getting” above?

If the boot fitter charges $100, then the customer decides whether they want to spend $100 on bootfiting. Whether the fitter is any good is a sperate question, just like it is for any service you a paying for.

In fact, I think it would help reduce the confusion. As @markojp says, his shop sells boots at MAP, then has skilled boot-fitters work on them without further charge.
But as several people mentioned, there are also plenty of shops selling boots at MAP, where all the service you get is from a ”boot seller”.
If both shops reduced their boot prices by $75, and charged $100 for boot fitting, people at @markojp’s shop would go: ‘wow, he did a great job, and so much work for only $100”, and people at the “boot seller” shop would go: “hmm, that high school kid really didn’t do very much for $100, I want my money back”

I also do not mean to say that shops and bootfitters should change their pricing, and that they would earn more money a different way (I am no business major)
I am just trying to explain, from a customer psychology standpoint, why many people might be less likely to seek out a bootfitter.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Slim, the customization process that normally comes with the purchase is not advertised around here. I think boot sellers/fitters often profile buyers and choose to not talk about those "included" options because it's just easier to give the customer as snug a fit off the shelf as possible then move them out the door.

Many buyers have no idea this customization is an option, so they don't ask for it when they buy boots. Reading the boot threads on this forum testifies to that. So does my experience as an instructor. I have spoken with numbers of boot owners who bought new boots at a brick and mortar shop, whose boots are probably too big considering what I see and what they tell me, and who have no idea that getting more snug boots would have cost no more and would have come with punching and grinding for no extra cost. They don't know this would lead to better control of their skis.

I don't sit with boot buyers in shops day after day to see what actually goes on, but this I guess is an industry-wide issue driven by the shop's need to move product to stay solvent. If you agree this is an issue, do you or anyone else here have an idea how can that be fixed?

@markojp's shop is the ideal. I assume the customization services that are included in a purchase are clearly stated on a big sign somewhere in the bootfitting area. That way those buyers who in another shop would be profiled as "comfort fit" buyers would more likely have a discussion about fit options with the fitter. Every shop should do this. But many don't. Or at least around here in NE they don't.

 

[François Pugh]

It's even more complex than that. I once bought a pair of boots that came with a fit guarantee. What that meant was that I was free to waste my time and gasoline bringing the boots back to them to have them adjusted for as long as I was stupid enough to keep doing that. I brought them back about six times; I'm stubborn. The boots never fit properly. A lot of work for $100, is still worthless if the in the end the boot doesn't fit properly.

Do your research, lots of research. Shop for a boot fitter, not a boot.

 

[Philpug]

Let me boil this all down to one sentence....

"You are not buying a boot, you are buying a fit."

​

 

[markojp]

Of course it's a bonus and well worth it. Then again buying boots for 50% off MAP if you know what you want is worth considering.

And the posts about buying too big a boot, or you trying to polish a turd assumes that the person buying online doesn't know what they need. I've been skiing long enough that I know what size I need, I have custom liners, I know the brand that tends to fit my feet, and I know what last works for me.

Don't get me wrong I respect the hell out of boot fitters, and to to the best I can when I need to.

Absolutely agree, but folks buying a new pair of the same boot they already own, have had set up, etc... are NOT the norm. FWIW, if I weren't in the industry, this is exactly what I'd do. It would still require about $200 of ala cart work, but the numbers still pencil out nicely. But again, we shouldn't be arguing to make exceptions the rule. For those asking "is it ok?", it's pretty clear it is not.

 

[markojp]

It's even more complex than that. I once bought a pair of boots that came with a fit guarantee. What that meant was that I was free to waste my time and gasoline bringing the boots back to them to have them adjusted for as long as I was stupid enough to keep doing that. I brought them back about six times; I'm stubborn. The boots never fit properly. A lot of work for $100, is still worthless if the in the end the boot doesn't fit properly.

Do your research, lots of research. Shop for a boot fitter, not a boot.

We would have let you return the boot and started over.

 

[markojp]

@Slim, the customization process that normally comes with the purchase is not advertised around here. I think boot sellers/fitters often profile buyers and choose to not talk about those "included" options because it's just easier to give the customer as snug a fit off the shelf as possible then move them out the door.

Many buyers have no idea this customization is an option, so they don't ask for it when they buy boots. Reading the boot threads on this forum testifies to that. So does my experience as an instructor. I have spoken with numbers of boot owners who bought new boots at a brick and mortar shop, whose boots are probably too big considering what I see and what they tell me, and who have no idea that getting more snug boots would have cost no more and would have come with punching and grinding for no extra cost. They don't know this would lead to better control of their skis.

I don't sit with boot buyers in shops day after day to see what actually goes on, but this I guess is an industry-wide issue driven by the shop's need to move product to stay solvent. If you agree this is an issue, do you or anyone else here have an idea how can that be fixed?

@markojp's shop is the ideal. I assume the customization services that are included in a purchase are clearly stated on a big sign somewhere in the bootfitting area. That way those buyers who in another shop would be profiled as "comfort fit" buyers would more likely have a discussion about fit options with the fitter. Every shop should do this. But many don't. Or at least around here in NE they don't.

I'm beginning to feel sorry for eastern skiers. This past winter, it seems we had a good number of eastern transplants new to our region. Anecdotally, I felt I spent much more time gaining trust with these customers as they seemed convinced we didn't really guarantee fit or exchanged boots, etc... On more than one occasion when someone wasn't buying in, I asked a shop regular seated nearby to pipe in.... " no, it's true. He's not bs'ing you." Weird, but true.

 

[markojp]

Ok, so you can always send them back

And you still don't have a boot to ski.

 

[Steve]

As to Eastern bootfitting. There are a number of great fitters who are completely trustworthy. I use Nick Blaylock. So any bad reputation that may exist is based on shops that don't have highly trained bootfitters. In the East a lot of the shops are in the cities, not near the ski areas, so you're just not going to get the same kind of person there.

Another thing. My wife is an example of this. There are people who ski really well in off the shelf boots with no modifications. Not everyone fits into the three category of fitter-needers.

People who strive for high level adjustments for high performance skiing. Canting, fore/aft, cuff align, etc.

People who have feet that don't fit well without punching, grinding, etc.

People who intentionally size down for better performance, and thus have to punch or grind sections of the boots.

My wife is a life long skier, excellent skier, but could care less about big edge angles or high performance. She just skis, really well. Her boots are probably a size too large and have never been adjusted to her feet.

I'd trade her comfort level on skis in her boots, for mine in my meticulously fit, canted and adjusted boots.

30-40 years ago bootfitting was a rare specialty. There still were lots of great skiers in off the shelf boots.

 

[markojp]

I think the current model of bootfitting included with boot sales and unspecified in cost makes it harder for the customer to decide to commit to that, and to see the value they are getting.


With the current bootfitter business model, it is hard for a customer to feel fully confident that they got their expected value out of the transaction, mostly because they don’t know what value they are getting.

Costs for a la cart boot work are specified, just like services at a bike shop.

Like a high quality bike shop, most customers know nothing about bike fit beyond the very basic set up and are riding only occassionally.... for some, the bug bites hard and all of a sudden, custom bike fit,etc... are well worth the price, especially once the bike budget goes over $$$2-3k.

Back to boot fit, part of the job is to gently educate and inform. My common line to a new customer is "we choose a boot for the norm of your foot volume and make room for the exceptions." Most are very surprised that shell volumes can be changed a d liners easily modified. A boot 'seller' will fit the exception (accommodate a spur, bunion, etc... ) and end up putting their customer in a boot too large and/or with too much volume. Sometimes we even have to be psycologists, but in the end, pulling the 'fit guarantee' card out usually eases the mind of the buyer.

 

[markojp]

As to Eastern bootfitting. There are a number of great fitters who are completely trustworthy. I use Nick Blaylock.

Another thing. My wife is an example of this. There are people who ski really well in off the shelf boots with no modifications. Not everyone fits into the three category of fitter-needers.

Absolutely right on both accounts. I'm envious of folks like your wife! And yes, if no additional or minimal work is needed, that's great!

What we in the west have to remember is that there are many more shops (in absolute numbers) in the east than the west, so unevenness of experience probably comes with the territory.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I'm beginning to feel sorry for eastern skiers. This past winter, it seems we had a good number of eastern transplants new to our region. Anecdotally, I felt I spent much more time gaining trust with these customers as they seemed convinced we didn't really guarantee fit or exchanged boots, etc... On more than one occasion when someone wasn't buying in, I asked a shop regular seated nearby to pipe in.... " no, it's true. He's not bs'ing you." Weird, but true.

No shop around here that I know of will accept a returned boot after they have worked on it. Is your shop an exception, or is this normal for shops in the area you ski?

 

[markojp]

No shop around here that I know of will accept a returned boot after they have worked on it. Is your shop an exception, or is this normal for shops in the area you ski?

This is only for boots purchased in store. It's the business model as we have a 'rack' outlet store where we can priced approximately for resale even if they've been worked on.

Last year, one of our best fitters melted the cuff of a boot that a customer had bought online and we were working on. Accidents happen. We bought the customer a new boot. This is also why we charge a la cart for boots purchased elsewhere.

 

[Ogg]

Absolutely right on both accounts. I'm envious of folks like your wife! And yes, if no additional or minimal work is needed, that's great!

What we in the west have to remember is that there are many more shops (in absolute numbers) in the east than the west, so unevenness of experience probably comes with the territory.

In the East there are a lot of shops in affluent areas that are nowhere near any place to ski. They may be staffed by "people who ski" but rarely by "skiers", in my experience. I always buy boots near where I ski in VT so when I need the inevitable follow up adjustments I can go in fresh after a day of skiing for the best possible results. I've also found I can often get better prices, especially on higher performance gear, near the mountains where there is a bigger demand and more competition. Getting the cheapest price is not nearly as important as getting the best value for your money, IMO, and a good boot fitter can be worth their weight in Stocklis.

 

[LiquidFeet]

It's even more complex than that. I once bought a pair of boots that came with a fit guarantee. What that meant was that I was free to waste my time and gasoline bringing the boots back to them to have them adjusted for as long as I was stupid enough to keep doing that. I brought them back about six times; I'm stubborn. The boots never fit properly. A lot of work for $100, is still worthless if the in the end the boot doesn't fit properly.

Do your research, lots of research. Shop for a boot fitter, not a boot.

This exact same thing happened to me. The bootfitter who did this to me is very highly respected in the area. He is especially respected among racer kids and their parents and instructors.

Why did such a person put me in a boot too big? He ordered it special for me and probably profiled me for a recreational fit even after I explained I was a new instructor wanting to work my way up in certification. Once this special order came in, he definitely wanted to move that boot off the shelf in the back room and out the door. I guess I was his only opportunity for getting that job done. He must have realized the boot was too big immediately when I put it on. I do remember he did not do a shell fit; he said he remembered my foot from back when he sized me and put in the special order.

At that point in my skiing I did not know about downsizing then punching/grinding. I ended up going back to him over and over because there was air in there. He kept sticking shims onto the liner. I always called first and made sure I didn't go into the shop when there were a lot of people to be taken care of. It became clear to me that he saw me as a problem customer as I kept returning for more shimming to fill gaps in the boot. I probably got a PSIA discount and maybe he didn't see me as a profit generating customer for the future, so didn't care if I was unhappy. Eventually he refused to work on the boot any more.

Had I known about down-sizing and grinding/punching, I'd have asked for that from the start. But it took another two boots for me to get to that bit of knowledge. Had he told me about this option at the start, I could have been a happy customer, like so many others were and are with this guy.

I'll never walk into that shop again for anything, despite its glowing reputation. I moved my skiing to another part of the state anyway, and eventually found a great bootfitter who finally put me in boots that fit and did all the work to make that fit exemplary.

 

[Philpug]

Show me a fitter that had a fit go south and just not work even though everything should have and that person go to someone else be totally happy and I will show you a fitter that has not been fitting boots very long.