Bumps for Boomers Clinics - Pros/Cons?

[Ski&ride]

Still, with regard to the OP’s quest, is B4B the best approach?

She’s about my age. As she indicated, fortunate enough to have no disability nor limitation on strength or flexibility (even allow the “average” standard of her age group). She could do a lot better than those stiff robotic “square” skiers protrait in the B4B promotional video.

Even if not the end game, would that be a stage the OP should go through on her way to bump proficiency? Or would that be an expensive side track?

 

[Chris V.]

Still, with regard to the OP’s quest, is B4B the best approach?

She’s about my age. As she indicated, fortunate enough to have no disability nor limitation on strength or flexibility (even allow the “average” standard of her age group). She could do a lot better than those stiff robotic “square” skiers protrait in the B4B promotional video.

Even if not the end game, would that be a stage the OP should go through on her way to bump proficiency? Or would that be an expensive side track?

The thing is, if the only bumps you were ever skiing were the fluff piles you see in this video--


--you could realistically just learn to do GS turns through most of them. All you'd need would be flexion and extension to absorb the irregularities. The line wouldn't really matter.

In other conditions--the results of the approach seen here wouldn't be pretty.

Far be it from me to stand in the way of anyone's fun. What one can hope to achieve depends on one's dedication and time available for practice, more than anything. Given enough of that, most boomer skiers will have the physical capacity to learn to do good short radius turns, which will be far more versatile than the style depicted in the video.

 

[KingGrump]

Even if not the end game, would that be a stage the OP should go through on her way to bump proficiency? Or would that be an expensive side track?

I would say for the OP, her obstacle to bump skiing is mostly a head game. B4B would probably provide a vehicle to get through that barrier.
I think she should get a decent return for her money.

 

[Dave Marshak]

[n other words, do you have experience teaching groups of non-bump skiers who ski square to ski with separation in their first attempts skiing bumps? How long does it take you to get them skiing those bumps with separation, and how large are your groups?

You seem to be inferring more than I actually wrote. Y

ou can't teach better skiing technique on terrain that overwhelms the student, and you can't teach technique and tactics at the same time.​

First, you need to teach tactics to make them comfortable in bumps with whatever skills they have, then you can teach them better ski skills. For students with some tactical ability in moguls, bumps are a good place to work on separation and flexion/extension. Once they learn better separation and flexion/extension you can teach them better tactics, but you can't do both at the same time.

IT takes a long time for adults to learn ski technique, but they can learn tactics much more quickly. Sometimes all you need to do is show them an easy line. Bumps for Boomers is just short skis to correct fore-aft balance, then show them the easy line. It's all about tactics, not technique. It's a top line program because 1) top instructors who can identify problems and make good terrain choices, and 2) it's in Aspen. You could do the same thing anywhere else, but I'd still rather be in Aspen.

dm

 

[Dave Marshak]

I would say for the OP, her obstacle to bump skiing is mostly a head game. B4B would probably provide a vehicle to get through that barrier.

I don't want to get into the OP's head, but the head game is true for a lot of students. That's why teaching tactics is effective for moguls or any other difficult condition. IT's all about getting over your fear and getting onto the learning curve.

dm

 

[Dave Marshak]

Still, with regard to the OP’s quest, is B4B the best approach?

She could do a lot better than those stiff robotic “square” skiers protrait in the B4B promotional video.

Even if not the end game, would that be a stage the OP should go through on her way to bump proficiency? Or would that be an expensive side track?

I'm guessing all those "robotic" skiers are happy with their progress, especially if they learned that in one week. It's the bottom of the learning curve, not a dead end or "side track." Many of them will be motivated by that limited success to learn more, and maybe some of them are happy just to be able to ski more of the mountain. Aspen is always expensive, but the B4B approach is effective and works anywhere. Lots of competent instructors use the same approach because it works.

OTOH I could work with a student on short turns, separation and flexion/extension for years before she had adequate skills to ski an aggressive mogul line. Even then, he would crash out a dozen times before he got it. Who is motivated enough for that?

dm

 

[Suzski]

I would say for the OP, her obstacle to bump skiing is mostly a head game. B4B would probably provide a vehicle to get through that barrier.
I think she should get a decent return for her money.

That certainly is a good part of it, @KingGrump . My head gets in my way, particularly when bump runs get steep. Maybe I should briefly describe what my current skill set actually is and what I've done thus far to try and improve my bump skiing.

1. Drills: I can side slip on either side for as long as an instructor would like me to. I can pivot-slip all day (well, almost, but who would want to?). I can do pivot slips in a narrow corridor or not, depending on what is asked for. I can do falling leaf on both sides comfortably. I have done/can do separation drills e.g. garlands, hands on hips, hands over the head, poles behind the back, and a drill I think of as the "pole window pane" where the poles are held in a "frame" off the snow, in front, and down the fall line. I like to pick a tree or other immovable object to center inside the frame.

2. Bumps: I've done lessons (Taos) where we; (i) start from a stationary position on the spine of one bump, (ii) place the pole on the downhill side and slightly behind (to avoid turning into it), (iii) pivot on the spine of the bump, and (iv) flatten the skis and side slip around on the secondary fall line. I can do this for one bump, but linking is another matter. I usually end up traversing over the next bump and turning on the next. Rinse, repeat.

3. The most helpful piece of advice (for me): "Turn your head and look at your next turn before you start the one you are about to execute." This helped me keep my upper body oriented down the fall line.

4. The most encouraging (and therefore, the most helpful) assessment from an instructor: "You aren't as bad as you think you are."

5. Type of skiing I like but don't get to do very often: I know you can't tell much, if anything, from a profile pic, but this one was taken this year in Whitefish MT in side-country terrain. There was about a foot of tracked out powder. It was lumpy and choppy but it wasn't like a conventional "bump run." I had no problems negotiating those conditions and I had a blast doing it. I have no problem skiing bumps that are widely spaced out. Where I had difficulty was steeper tracked out terrain w/tight trees (e.g., Gray's Golf Course and The Back Nine). I would never have ventured there w/o an instructor.

I think it is the quickness required in "real" bumps that eludes me. I need to learn how to ski them s l o w l y. I know it can be done, b/c I've been with instructors who do it beautifully.

Given the above, do those of you that know B4B (or Clendenin) think that a structured clinic would be helpful to me, or should I perhaps try and design my own "clinic" with instructors I like? (E.g, numbers 3 and 4 above came from an instructor in Taos).

Sorry to belabor this, but the clinics are $$$ and I get great input from folks on this site.

Cheers.

 

[Dave Marshak]

I've done lessons (Taos) where we; (i) start from a stationary position on the spine of one bump, (ii) place the pole on the downhill side and slightly behind (to avoid turning into it), (iii) pivot on the spine of the bump, and (iv) flatten the skis and side slip around on the secondary fall line. I can do this for one bump, but linking is another matter. I usually end up traversing over the next bump and turning on the next. Rinse, repeat.

IF you can't make a new turn at the end of your old turn, you are out of balance, probably a little in the backseat. Fore-aft balance is a difficult skill in bumps because you need to flex and absorb (which puts you back) just before you need to get forward to turn. Try stopping on top of every bump to rebalance before starting your next turn.

I think it is the quickness required in "real" bumps that eludes me. I need to learn how to ski them s l o w l y. I know it can be done, b/c I've been with instructors who do it beautifully.

Quickness in bumps comes from being slow. When you ski over a bump, the pressure builds until you reach the top, then the pressure suddenly decreases as you go over the top. You need to wait for the pressure decrease before you start your turn. A lot of skiers try to get the turn started while pressure is still building. That's too soon and too hard. Maybe that's related to the problem you described above, too.

If you can find a group with similar goals and aptitude, groups are usually better than private lessons. One of the good things about high-end camps is that they are staffed by top instructors and usually able to accommodate skiers of variable ability. Talk to Joe Nevins or the Aspen Ski School. They could give you a better idea of the best clinics based on your skills.

dm

 

[mdf]

I can do this for one bump, but linking is another matter. I usually end up traversing

Might be balance, but could still be mental.
I'd rather see people link bad turns than shop for good ones. And as ugly as the BFB turns are, they aren't shopping.

 

[tball]

I'd rather see people link bad turns than shop for good ones. And as ugly as the BFB turns are, they aren't shopping.

There's another video with lots of shopping, and a description of the tactics of shopping for a turn:


The "turn your skis uphill" to control speed is a band-aid, dead-end tactic, and bad advice, IMO. Once you start skiing across/up the hill, that next turn becomes increasingly difficult and results in the meandering we see so often in skiers struggling to ski bumps.

To be fair, some of the other videos show students making that next turn without meandering. Not sure how they got their students there from shopping for turns.

My coaching for our kiddos learning to ski the bumps is a simple as "turn more often to slow down" and "turn, turn, turn" specifically to keep them from traversing across/up the hill to control speed.

 

[James]

I'd rather see people link bad turns than shop for good ones.

The turns always get more expensive. Then you're forced to buy at a high price. Sometimes it's more than you can afford.
It's human nature though, it'll be better if we look more.

 

[Mike King]

What's the number one problem we see in intermediate skiers? And what's the number one issue that keeps them from successfully navigating the bumps? It isn't separation, IMO. It is fore/aft balance. You can't address separation, or much of anything else, until you get them in the center of the ski.

Bumps for boomers uses ski boards to teach these folk how to stand in the center of the ski. Seems like a reasonable approach.

Once they stand in the center of the ski, they can then use turn shape to control their speed (e.g. turn the skis up the hill).

Perhaps later they would be candidates to address separation.

Mike

 

[Seldomski]

There is a distinction here between shopping for turns vs. turning when you are ready. Clendenin method says to turn when you are ready. I assume that B4B says something similar based on the videos I have seen.

Clendenin method does not want you to make a 'bad turn.' They would rather have you keep 'drifting' down the mountain until you feel comfortable. Then make the perfect turn over/around a mogul. Once you dial in your balance, it becomes possible to make the next turn right at the top of the next mogul as you complete the prior. Then the limiting factor does become upper/lower body separation. Without good separation, your upper body rotation/position limits how quickly the next turn can happen. If you are going slow enough, it's not as important.

Many of the comments in this thread remind me of frustration I have had with one-off bump lessons I have taken over the years. The idea that you have to be 'ready' to go into bumps. IMO this is the big distinction between PSIA teaching vs. these methods (B4B and Clendenin). The former gets hung up on improving form on groomers until the student is "ready." I have taken many prior lessons where I asked to do bumps. We didn't do bumps until very late in the lesson. With the Clendenin method instructor, I was in the bumps (easy ones) after a couple warm up groomer runs. I had never before had a lesson where we were in the bumps before 11am.

I prefer to work on technique that will help in bumps ... in the bumps! It is boring to do so on groomers because there is little to keep you honest. If you get late or sloppy, recovery is no problem. I pay much more attention in bumps than I do on the groomer. When I get out of the bumps, my groomer skiing feels better - but this improvement doesn't persist long. My body is lazy and will cheat when it can. It can't cheat in bumps and get away with it.

Is it more logical to seek perfection on groomers, then take that into the bumps and immediately excel there? Maybe. For those with the will, perhaps you can get good at bumps with fewer total lessons. But for me, this makes for too many boring lessons. I quit taking lessons for about 10 years because I had a sequence of several lessons where I asked to do bumps, but we never actually went to bumps - or only went there for a couple runs!

 

[James]

I really don't get why people are so against this B4B. It's getting people to ski bumps who never do. At least they help make the bumps round as opposed to slaming on the brakes and building steep walls like many.

Sure, people in their 60's might learn to zipper line, like < 1%, but you've got to start somewhere.

 

[Josh Matta]

do you want to compensate more, or do you want to be more capable?

 

[Seldomski]

I am actually looking at some more dedicated bump instruction options...specifically: https://www.momentumskicamps.com/programs/winter-clinics/

Don't mean to derail the thread here, but this pricing is much lower. But I do believe they have a higher entry bar than B4B or Clendenin. Their site even says they reserve the right to fire you from the lesson (with a refund) if you suck.

 

[Corgski]

That certainly is a good part of it, @KingGrump . My head gets in my way, particularly when bump runs get steep. Maybe I should briefly describe what my current skill set actually is and what I've done thus far to try and improve my bump skiing.

1. Drills: I can side slip on either side for as long as an instructor would like me to. I can pivot-slip all day (well, almost, but who would want to?). I can do pivot slips in a narrow corridor or not, depending on what is asked for. I can do falling leaf on both sides comfortably. I have done/can do separation drills e.g. garlands, hands on hips, hands over the head, poles behind the back, and a drill I think of as the "pole window pane" where the poles are held in a "frame" off the snow, in front, and down the fall line. I like to pick a tree or other immovable object to center inside the frame.

2. Bumps: I've done lessons (Taos) where we; (i) start from a stationary position on the spine of one bump, (ii) place the pole on the downhill side and slightly behind (to avoid turning into it), (iii) pivot on the spine of the bump, and (iv) flatten the skis and side slip around on the secondary fall line. I can do this for one bump, but linking is another matter. I usually end up traversing over the next bump and turning on the next. Rinse, repeat.

3. The most helpful piece of advice (for me): "Turn your head and look at your next turn before you start the one you are about to execute." This helped me keep my upper body oriented down the fall line.

4. The most encouraging (and therefore, the most helpful) assessment from an instructor: "You aren't as bad as you think you are."

5. Type of skiing I like but don't get to do very often: I know you can't tell much, if anything, from a profile pic, but this one was taken this year in Whitefish MT in side-country terrain. There was about a foot of tracked out powder. It was lumpy and choppy but it wasn't like a conventional "bump run." I had no problems negotiating those conditions and I had a blast doing it. I have no problem skiing bumps that are widely spaced out. Where I had difficulty was steeper tracked out terrain w/tight trees (e.g., Gray's Golf Course and The Back Nine). I would never have ventured there w/o an instructor.

I think it is the quickness required in "real" bumps that eludes me. I need to learn how to ski them s l o w l y. I know it can be done, b/c I've been with instructors who do it beautifully.

Given the above, do those of you that know B4B (or Clendenin) think that a structured clinic would be helpful to me, or should I perhaps try and design my own "clinic" with instructors I like? (E.g, numbers 3 and 4 above came from an instructor in Taos).

Sorry to belabor this, but the clinics are $$$ and I get great input from folks on this site.

Cheers.

My view as an adult learning to ski at the same time as my kids is that balance is under emphasized for adults. That sounds like a good range of drills to me, but you have not mentioned any one footed balance drills, unless those side slips are one footed. Any thousand steps drill or starting one footed skiing, maybe traversing while alternating between lifting uphill and downhill ski? I'd suggest that if you are on top of all of that, go ahead with the bumps courses, if not, wait until you are.

While very much a work in progress for myself, it was an eye opener to realize that one is expected to be able to be on either foot at any time (within the limits of physics) even when it means you are balancing on the little toe edge of one ski (my personal nemesis). The nice thing about it is that even if you are not successful at it, after just 20 minutes of not very fun practice all normal skiing will seem so easy.

Edit: You really want to do the one legged stuff on hard snow - soft snow does not quite give you the full experience of balancing on a cantilever.

 

[Mike King]

I am actually looking at some more dedicated bump instruction options...specifically: https://www.momentumskicamps.com/programs/winter-clinics/

Don't mean to derail the thread here, but this pricing is much lower. But I do believe they have a higher entry bar than B4B or Clendenin. Their site even says they reserve the right to fire you from the lesson (with a refund) if you suck.

If you want to learn competitive bump technique, that'd be a good choice. But you better be a pretty high level skier. The camps, as I understand them, use instructors from the Whistler/Blackcomb ski school. The minimum requirement is a high level 5, but Whistler uses a 6 level assessment of skiers. Level 5 skiers canan link turns on blue runs. Learning short turns, carving, off-piste terrain and powder. Can do basic freestyle and is interested in learning to ride Terrain Park. Level 6 can snowboard/ski in control on black runs and comfortable riding in the terrain park. Learning steeps, trees, drops, off piste, and improving freestyle skills in Terrain Park.

 

[jack97]

.

Given the above, do those of you that know B4B (or Clendenin) think that a structured clinic would be helpful to me, or should I perhaps try and design my own "clinic" with instructors I like? (E.g, numbers 3 and 4 above came from an instructor in Taos).

Sorry to belabor this, but the clinics are $$$ and I get great input from folks on this site.

Cheers.

If cost is an issue, I would see if the option is available for a group lesson that focuses on the bumps. At my home mountain, every now and then I see an instructor taking a a small group out to the bumps. If the cost is not an issue, I would go for the design my own clinic, one of the drawbacks with these structure clinic in a group setting and group lessons in general is the instructor can only spend a limited amount of time with each skier and has to stay within the bounds of the lesson plan.

BTW, I took a private with a former mogul competitor and then coach. I got tips on what to focus on and drills tailored for my deficiencies on the hill. More valuable was he noticed the limitations my gear was giving me that day.

 

[Mike King]

Personally, given what you've asked for, I would go for either a camp or a set of private lessons. The problem with group lessons as they pertain to bumps is that there is such a wide range of skills that you wind up potentially with a very disparate group. And since the group is not a multiday bumps focused lesson, each day is likely a different instructor with different people, often covering the same stuff. Yet more problematic is that I doubt too many groups are going to want to focus the entire day on bumps. Not that a camp focused on bumps will spend all of their time in bumps, but all of the activities will be focused on skill development that is aimed at bump skiing. That's why a bumps oriented camp would be, IMO, a better bet.

Much more expensive, but probably much more effective than either of the other options is a multiday private lesson. You would need to be careful about selecting the instructor, but the advantage of the private is that it is focused entirely on you and your objectives.

Mike