Boutique/indy skis

[Yo Momma]

Gimme a Moment!

 

[chopchop]

Gimme a Moment!

Nice. Wildcats?

edit: @GregK should approve.

 

[GregK]

edit: @GregK should approve.

He Does!!! Lol
They look good! Did you go for the 190cm versions?

 

[Yo Momma]

He Does!!! Lol
They look good! Did you go for the 190cm versions?

Yup! Truly appreciated the advice. After feeling the wgt and seeing the profile, it's definitely the right length. Thanks GregK

 

[GregK]

Yup! Truly appreciated the advice. After feeling the wgt and seeing the profile, it's definitely the right length. Thanks GregK

You’ll love them!! Now all we need is snow and a virus cure and you’ll be ripping these and getting lots of compliments.

Now I wait till Aug for the 2021 versions to come out.

 

[ski otter 2]

@jmeb , I still wish that at some point I'd been able to take you up on your kind offer to try out one or more of your Deathwishes, maybe at Loveland.
Maybe next year.
(Actually, I wish at this point I could have tried out just about any ski at Loveland more this past season.)


I've owned Movements, and now own a Blossom pair, Moments, an ON3P pair, Kastles, Stocklis, of the smaller production or indy skis.
I'd probably like to own a pair of ON3P Billygoats, and some more of the others also, if I didn't already have so many skis.

My brother's favorite ski brand has for many years been Movement. (Multiple pairs.) He particularly has loved the Movement Source 95, as a light backcountry and powder ski with pin bindings, made mostly before that company went through so many changes and moves, internationally.
I've really liked also the Movement Jam, a cheater slalom-like, all mountain but frontside biased ski.
.
Gotta admit, I'd still love to try out the Moment Deathwish 111s, especially in the 190 length. I'll bet I'd love that ski.
Maybe even the shorter one would work, don't know. (But then I love my Volkl Katana 112/191 skis as my soft snow favorites, at the Moment, though the K2 Mindbender 108s would be a contender if I could get the tune right.)

Also, I've been afraid to commit to the Moment Wildcats, though I have both the 184 and 191 Bibbys, primarily because I fear the Wildcats are just not damp enough in rough crud for me, compared to the Bibbys especially.

But I bet the 191 Wildcats may well be just right in length, more so than with the longer Bibbys at times, for me.

I have had to admit that the 191 Bibbys are probably too much ski for me in some conditions (e.g., wet super-deep snow on steep enough terrain for me to have to commit to too much speed, on those skis, than is safe for me, at my age). It's not a problem that comes up very often.
I don't have that problem with many other fat skis at that length.

The Praxis GPOs (I've been calling them GTOs) have interested me for a lot of years also.

On custom skis, I don't go there because I can't really generalize what ski characteristics are my favorites, at almost any width. It's a happy combination of sometimes, for me, unpredictable specs, that often surprises me and is tops. So I just have a hard time generalizing what will work and what won't, for me. Slightly frustrating. Bet I'd love skis that actually were designed for my particular skiing, maybe.

So many of these smaller brands seem like wonderful skis. An adventure.

 

[jmeb]

For @ski otter 2 or any pugsters -- there is a set of 184 Deathwishes (pre the slight tip/tail stiffening in the post '19 model year) available for testing at Loveland. Mounted with Tyrolia Attack demo binders that are release tested 2x per season.

 

[chopchop]

@jmeb , I still wish that at some point I'd been able to take you up on your kind offer to try out one or more of your Deathwishes, maybe at Loveland.
Maybe next year.
(Actually, I wish at this point I could have tried out just about any ski at Loveland more this past season.)


I've owned Movements, and now own a Blossom pair, Moments, an ON3P pair, Kastles, Stocklis, of the smaller production or indy skis.
I'd probably like to own a pair of ON3P Billygoats, and some more of the others also, if I didn't already have so many skis.

My brother's favorite ski brand has for many years been Movement. (Multiple pairs.) He particularly has loved the Movement Source 95, as a light backcountry and powder ski with pin bindings, made mostly before that company went through so many changes and moves, internationally.
I've really liked also the Movement Jam, a cheater slalom-like, all mountain but frontside biased ski.
.
Gotta admit, I'd still love to try out the Moment Deathwish 111s, especially in the 190 length. I'll bet I'd love that ski.
Maybe even the shorter one would work, don't know. (But then I love my Volkl Katana 112/191 skis as my soft snow favorites, at the Moment, though the K2 Mindbender 108s would be a contender if I could get the tune right.)

Also, I've been afraid to commit to the Moment Wildcats, though I have both the 184 and 191 Bibbys, primarily because I fear the Wildcats are just not damp enough in rough crud for me, compared to the Bibbys especially.

But I bet the 191 Wildcats may well be just right in length, more so than with the longer Bibbys at times, for me.

I have had to admit that the 191 Bibbys are probably too much ski for me in some conditions (e.g., wet super-deep snow on steep enough terrain for me to have to commit to too much speed, on those skis, than is safe for me, at my age). It's not a problem that comes up very often.
I don't have that problem with many other fat skis at that length.

The Praxis GPOs (I've been calling them GTOs) have interested me for a lot of years also.

On custom skis, I don't go there because I can't really generalize what ski characteristics are my favorites, at almost any width. It's a happy combination of sometimes, for me, unpredictable specs, that often surprises me and is tops. So I just have a hard time generalizing what will work and what won't, for me. Slightly frustrating. Bet I'd love skis that actually were designed for my particular skiing, maybe.

So many of these smaller brands seem like wonderful skis. An adventure.

@ski otter 2

I'll let you know how the ON3P BGs ski. I snapped up a pair a few weeks back.

This indie/boutique bug bit hard this spring. Also bought a pair of Bluehouse (defunct) Maestros (118mm, twin tip playful pow ski) and a pair of Kästle MX 99s to compare to my new Bones. The closet is getting kinda full at this point.

 

[GregK]

@jmeb
Also, I've been afraid to commit to the Moment Wildcats, though I have both the 184 and 191 Bibbys, primarily because I fear the Wildcats are just not damp enough in rough crud for me, compared to the Bibbys especially.

But I bet the 191 Wildcats may well be just right in length, more so than with the longer Bibbys at times, for me.

I have had to admit that the 191 Bibbys are probably too much ski for me in some conditions (e.g., wet super-deep snow on steep enough terrain for me to have to commit to too much speed, on those skis, than is safe for me, at my age). It's not a problem that comes up very often.
I don't have that problem with many other fat skis at that length.

Your experience with the 190cm Bibby is the reason myself and countless others are so excited for the 2021 Wildcats. The 190cm Bibby can be a bit of a handful for smaller or less aggressive skiers. The 21 Wildcat will have lower swing weight, float better and easier to ski due to the semi-cap tip/tail from the Wildcat construction but with some added dampness and weight to give it the crud capabilities/feel of the Bibby.

And btw, have you seen the weight of the new Volkl Katana 108? 2350 grams in the 184cm and they make a 191cm too. Should be a crud destroyer with more versatility than the older version.

 

[Yo Momma]

Hard to manage ski brakes in this 1-teener category. What is everyone doing? Bending them out or buying large? I just bought a set of 120mm brakes that barely fit my 118 mm skis... I bent them but then ordered the 136's out of curiosity. Hmmm????

 

[jmeb]

I prefer to bend them out a touch than have an oversized brake.

 

[ski otter 2]

Hard to manage ski brakes in this 1-teener category. What is everyone doing? Bending them out or buying large? I just bought a set of 120mm brakes that barely fit my 118 mm skis... I bent them but then ordered the 136's out of curiosity. Hmmm????

The 120 works great. Not sure it even needs to be bent on a 118 ski. But I'd bend before getting that much wider, for sure. Actually, I've routinely bent 110 brakes for ~112 to 116 skis with no problems, but also gotten the 120 for maybe 117 and wider, as it happens. (The 110 use originated in the shop I go to most, a best skiing buddy there with 30+ years experience in the biz.)

 

[Yo Momma]

The 120 works great. Not sure it even needs to be bent on a 118 ski. But I'd bend before getting that much wider, for sure. Actually, I've routinely bent 110 brakes for ~112 to 116 skis with no problems, but also gotten the 120 for maybe 117 and wider, as it happens. (The 110 use originated in the shop I go to most, a best skiing buddy there with 30+ years experience in the biz.)

I bent them out a bit and that seemed to work as per the pics. Wondering if I need to bend the tips of the brakes back in a bit as a "neatness" quotient ..... so they tuck in little better...... or just leave them alone? Your thoughts....

 

[ski otter 2]

Your experience with the 190cm Bibby is the reason myself and countless others are so excited for the 2021 Wildcats. The 190cm Bibby can be a bit of a handful for smaller or less aggressive skiers. The 21 Wildcat will have lower swing weight, float better and easier to ski due to the semi-cap tip/tail from the Wildcat construction but with some added dampness and weight to give it the crud capabilities/feel of the Bibby.

And btw, have you seen the weight of the new Volkl Katana 108? 2350 grams in the 184cm and they make a 191cm too. Should be a crud destroyer with more versatility than the older version.

Yes, this sounds very promising with the new Wildcat, thanks. Although I like skiing the longer Bibbys in many conditions and slopes, I do notice that for me it seems unnecessarily fat for many situations, and on the other side, as I said, it can become a ski that needs too much speed to work properly in gnarly but rare situations, at least in my case (age, but that comes in play here because of my weight also, probably).

Actually, I think for me the big difference with the longer Bibbys is that they are 118 width, instead of the 116 of the 184 version, and to me that's really noticeable.

Not sure about the 108 Katanas. I had the opportunity to ski those on a powder day at SIA, and the Volkl rep discouraged me on that. He said to skip it, for me. (We've known each other for some years, and he loves the longer Katanas also.) He said the 108 construction and handling is the same as the M5 Mantras and the 102 Mantras, not like either of the two versions of the Katana, old or V-Werks. So he said the 108 Katanas should really be called 108 Mantras, except for the extra width. So I passed.

(I passed also because I'd just demoed the K2 108 Mindbenders, which for me, at the right mount point and with the right tuning, is a once or thrice in a decade soft snow ski, like the shorter 184 Bibbys and longer 191 Katana V-Werks have been also.)

I own the M5 but rarely use it. For me the V-Werks Mantra made it pretty much obsolete. I found that with a plate under the bindings, or an elevated demo binding like the Tyrolia Attack2 13 AT demo, the M5 is really more fun, noticeably better than with a lower binding. Just as a GS ski would be. But to me the M5 is still basically a fat GS ski, with the strengths and weaknesses of that - especially in crud or off piste for the weaknesses.

That Mantra 102 was a fun, more stable GS charger - really liked it, but like the V-Werks skis way more (both versions of the V-W Mantras, and the V-W Katanas also). For me, just favorite skis: when at the right mount point, right tune, just go for it - and for me really tops in crud also, at least as good as the Bibbys, and the 191 Katanas are even better in crud than the Bibbys at either length, for me. At just the right mount point, adjusted, OMG.

The Blistergear folks have never gotten around to trying the 191 Katana, and to me, this was a great mistake or oversight. Especially these days, the Blister folk have a lot of lighter weight reviewers, and if they are anything like me, the 191s would be a standout in powder for them too, not just a charger ski that can't do deep powder, as the 184 sometimes is to me because of being so sensitive to fore-aft balance at that shorter length. Not with the 191s, my Heavens.
(This stuff is fun.)

 

[ski otter 2]

I bent them out a bit and that seemed to work as per the pics. Wondering if I need to bend the tips of the brakes back in a bit as a "neatness" quotient ..... so they tuck in little better...... or just leave them alone? Your thoughts....

Dunno! Nice fine-tuning! Honestly, I've never thought of doing that. Also, I'm a bit clumsy at brake bending, and have broken a brake or two, as have many guys in the shops. So I've tried to do minimal changes. With the brake changes you are considering, i don't think there will be a problem just leaving it alone. But it sounds like you may have more experience at really fine-tuning the fit of the dang things, and know better than me.

I guess that until a brake in a setup actually catches in some way, I've tended to just check the clearance and the free movement, and left it at that.

With a fatter ski like that, I think it's less critical. With a really narrow or race ski, I might want the fit to be more perfect. (120 for a 118 ski sounds pretty close to perfect, though.)

 

[Quandary]

@ski otter 2

I'll let you know how the ON3P BGs ski. I snapped up a pair a few weeks back.

This indie/boutique bug bit hard this spring. Also bought a pair of Bluehouse (defunct) Maestros (118mm, twin tip playful pow ski) and a pair of Kästle MX 99s to compare to my new Bones. The closet is getting kinda full at this point.

I love my Billy Goats. Best powder/soft snow ski I have ever had. However with the RES and asymmetrical shape they are a bit squirrely on hard snow.

 

[ski otter 2]

Yeah, but on even a bit of soft, as I recall from demoing them more than twice, those things get wonderful.....

Maybe that's what I gotta go for instead of wishing for a Head Kore117/Dynastar Proto Factory merger as my dreamland ski.
(a powder ski that's damp but quick like the Kore and that tracks like the Proto)

 

[Yo Momma]

Dunno! Nice fine-tuning! Honestly, I've never thought of doing that. Also, I'm a bit clumsy at brake bending, and have broken a brake or two, as have many guys in the shops. So I've tried to do minimal changes. With the brake changes you are considering, i don't think there will be a problem just leaving it alone. But it sounds like you may have more experience at really fine-tuning the fit of the dang things, and know better than me.

I guess that until a brake in a setup actually catches in some way, I've tended to just check the clearance and the free movement, and left it at that.

With a fatter ski like that, I think it's less critical. With a really narrow or race ski, I might want the fit to be more perfect. (120 for a 118 ski sounds pretty close to perfect, though.)

I used this vid and bent the 120 brakes and tips in nicely. Super easy and now they tuck in totally out of the way. I'm sending back the 136mm's. Much too big.

 

[GregK]

@ski otter 2 The Katana 108 is definitely more of a wider Mantra than a skinnier Katana. I do wish all the Mantra models(even my Kendo 88 too) had a smoother tip rise to prevent bulldozing when going over crud especially at speed. The original Katana had more rocker, more tip splay and a softer tip flex which made it more forgiving in crud and in powder.

I notice such a difference when skis have that smooth, gradual tip rise vs abrupt tips like those found on slalom skis etc. Skiing my blunt tip shaped Menace 98s back to back vs the 192cm MFree 108 really showed how much better modern slopped tips are when charging over rougher terrain at high speeds. Glad to see most manufacturers making the switch to modern tip slopes on all mountain and powder skis.

Every ski I’ve owned until ON3P and Moments I get the bases ground flat and then put on 1/3 edge angles tip/tail only detune forward of the taper to prevent top sheet scratching when skiing in moguls. ON3P and Moment should both come factory detuned all the way to the contact point, not just taper point. So check to make sure they are detuned to the contact point and then put your edge angles on underfoot. I went to a 1/2 edge on mine vs the 1/1 from the factory to get more bite and it’s perfect.
Could imagine the longer turning radius, heavier weight or edge high/edges sharp past the contact point being the issue far more than 2mm of width difference between the 184cm and 190cm.

And for the ON3P RES BG owners or those trying them out, you want make sure you are on the recommended line only as they do not like being moved off that line it seems. No demo bindings needed on those! Lol

 

[ski otter 2]

@Yo Mamma, I knew it! You had some extra skills up your sleeve with those brakes. Nice video! I'll have to try it sometime to really follow that "bend it on a vice" process more fully, but very impressive and precise! Thanks!


@GregK, there is a lot of good detail here, some I've tried and some it doesn't hurt to be nudged a bit about. Thanks also.
The new version of the Wildcats may be something to tinker with too.

(The following is, I know, too long - probably just the result of being pent up/couped up from the current pandemic situation, so just feel free to skip.)

In response to your great suggestions/experiences, @GregK ,

I've been spoiled by the K2 Pettitors 120/191, my all time favorite, baseline powder & soft snow ski.

I've mostly used 1/2 on fat skis, in the last ten years or so.

For me, "detuning" is never the business of dulling the edge, but rather of increasing the base bevel angle or depth of it or both - generally from the contact point forward, but sometimes a bit forward of that (with, for example, the K2 Pinnacle 105, a ski with a pronounced rocker height.)
So far, I have not found a ski that doesn't work on (with the possible exception of the Bibbys? And maybe the next to longest Volkl Confessions? Not sure yet, if ever!). But I'm open about it, experimentally. I'm sure some of the skis I've demoed have been detuned by dulling, since it's so prevalent.

Also, tip/tail edges potentially still too high for that ski is, I'm suspecting, still a possibility I have to test more at some point soon, since I've already lowered them a bit for the next time, and must test on the slopes, when possible again.

At any rate, I go by feel, and with the longer Bibbys, for me they feel too fat, especially in heavy deep, whereas the 184 Bibbys, etc. don't. (Yet no problem with 120/191 K2 Pettitors and other skis in that way.) I have on-going experiments to improve the longer Bibbys for me, but that aside, so many other fat skis seem to be more likely avenues at this point. (20/21 Head Kore 117s, Nordica Free 115s, the new upcoming Wildcats, etc.)

Yes, the longer turn radius may be a factor, definitely, as you suggested. Not so much the weight: heavier skis are often still my bread and butter on such a day, besides the light 191 Katanas: I can still charge the same terrain and snow on the Pettitors 120 (much heavier) and to a lesser extent on, say, the older Atomic Automatics 117 in 186, at the same speeds, with no problem. If I ask myself why, it seems to be because, at least for me, their turn can be shorter or longer, more responsive, more versatile, like the 184 Bibbys a bit - many more options in any given moment, in the fall line. Just more control and ease of use at any speed, and thus less feeling of being in a locked in or risky situation, for me at least.
(A younger, stronger, heavier skier would be able to activate those longer Bibbys in ways that I cannot, however.)

The 190 Bibbys for me don't fall into the same flexible groove, and instead like bigger radius turns with more speed required, even though they are a bit playful. On many slopes, this works fine - big, longer turns, very stable, fun - with some finesse and slarve still possible. But especially in really deep, heavy wet snow, there are a lot of torques involved, real consequences if I'd catch up in that heavy stuff and fall, real damage to me possible now. So for me, it's now a problem on those particular skis at least. Peace and out.